Overpaid Leafs

[Zee]

That freaking list...

Either way, that's not an entirely accurate recollection of that list. Jeff Carter was also there. Also a RFA and making less than Kessel.

Carter is making more salary than Kessel. His cap hit is lower because he has one of those long term deals that plays funny with the cap.  He's making $6M this year, it continues to climb to a high of $7M at one point, then drops off dramatically in the last years of his deal.

For future reference, how a deal is structured means just about nothing to me. Especially not for a young player. When I talk about what a player makes, I'm talking about his cap hit and not what he's actually putting into the bank every week. That doesn't strike me as all that important.

It's very important.  Kessel's deal is over in 2013/2014.  Based on how he performs you can judge his next contract at that point.  Comparing to Carter, his contract continues to 2022.  They're stuck with his cap hit whether he's worth it or not.  If he suddenly drops off and turns into a Scott Gomez, that cap hit will be brutal.  So anyway that I slice it, Kessel has a very good contract for what he's bringing to the Leafs.

 

[Kin]

It's very important.  Kessel's deal is over in 2013/2014.

Not if the question is if he's overpaid. If the question is whether or not he might be overpaid in the future, maybe.

 

[Zee]

If you do it by that measure, then Kessel is UNDERPAID.  He's led the Leafs in goals and points the last 2 seasons, if you compare to the rest of the Leafs roster, Kessel should be the highest paid player since he provides the most offense.

Um, what? I in no way said Kessel should only be compared to other Maple Leafs. I explicitly said the opposite.

You said

[quote author=Saint Nik]
Where I would say Kessel is overpaid is in comparing him to guys who add roughly the same value to their teams and looking at what they made as RFA's. Not a pretty arbitrary grouping of guys miles above him. [/quote]

Look at guys on other teams who lead their teams in scoring.  They are generally the highest paid player on the team.  That is why I'm taking your point about "same value to their teams" and taking it to the next logical step.  Kessel leads the Leafs in points, yet he's not the highest paid Leaf, so by comparison his salary is good.

 

[maplesyrup]

This thread has gotten loopy.  ??? The heat?

 

[Kin]

Look at guys on other teams who lead their teams in scoring.  They are generally the highest paid player on the team.  That is why I'm taking your point about "same value to their teams" and taking it to the next logical step.

No, that's got absolutely nothing to do with my point. If Crosby leads his team in scoring with a 100 points and Kessel leads his with 60 it's still not a valid comparison because they're not adding comparable value to their teams.

 

[Zee]

Look at guys on other teams who lead their teams in scoring.  They are generally the highest paid player on the team.  That is why I'm taking your point about "same value to their teams" and taking it to the next logical step.

No, that's got absolutely nothing to do with my point. If Crosby leads his team in scoring with a 100 points and Kessel leads his with 60 it's still not a valid comparison because they're not adding comparable value to their teams.

What is your point? 

Kessel was 36th in league scoring last season.
Kessel's contract doesn't even put him in the top 50 highest paid players in the league.

Maybe you're suggesting the entire Leafs roster is overpaid since we don't have any players in the top 20 in scoring?  So the Leafs should have a team at the cap floor since we haven't made the playoffs in 6 seasons.

 

[Kin]

What is your point? 

It's really pretty simple if you go back to that first post of mine about it.

All of us have a handle on what a player's worth. When we look at a hypothetical player, say a guy who scored 20 goals, 25 assists, we can come to a conclusion as to what we'd want to pay him in terms of the value he contributes to a team. That includes looking not just at his point totals but the some of his contributions(defensive play, physicality and so on). We combine that with a player's contract status and can figure out a rough estimation of value and what his team should pay him.

When you look at people who Kessel can be legitimately compared to of similar contributions, status and what they're getting paid, I tend to think Kessel is paid a little bit on the high side for the value he brings to the Leafs.

 

[Zee]

What is your point? 

It's really pretty simple if you go back to that first post of mine about it.

All of us have a handle on what a player's worth. When we look at a hypothetical player, say a guy who scored 20 goals, 25 assists, we can come to a conclusion as to what we'd want to pay him in terms of the value he contributes to a team. That includes looking not just at his point totals but the some of his contributions(defensive play, physicality and so on). We combine that with a player's contract status and can figure out a rough estimation of value and what his team should pay him.

When you look at people who Kessel can be legitimately compared to of similar contributions, status and what they're getting paid, I tend to think Kessel is paid a little bit on the high side for the value he brings to the Leafs.

You'd make a bad GM.

 

[Kin]

You'd make a bad GM.

It's entirely possible. I might even miss the playoffs the last few years running.

 

[Damian]

This thread has gotten loopy.  ??? The heat?

True dat!

 

[ZBBM]

Expecting guys to live up to contracts they've already kind of proven they won't doesn't really make a lot of sense. Phaneuf was available because he was a disappointment.

I suspect many hoped or expected Phaneuf would bounce back to perform closer to a level his contract represents. Overall, I don't think he has since he arrived in Toronto. Still hoping he'll figure it out this season ... but I can't say that I expect it. As you say, if he had been performing in Calgary up to the level his deal suggests, he'd probably still be in Calgary.

I agree.  i wish it were otherwise, but I think what we see in Phaneuf is all we'll ever get. 

 

[pnjunction]

I think almost all of the players have the potential to earn their salaries or at least come close...except Komisarek. Man what a dud.

Phaneuf is definitely in the 'come close' category.  We saw a guy who looked like a $5-5.5M guy for a few stretches when he was healthy but only glimpses of what you should be getting for $6.5M (for example that overtime play).

 

[rdowdall]

What is your point? 

It's really pretty simple if you go back to that first post of mine about it.

All of us have a handle on what a player's worth. When we look at a hypothetical player, say a guy who scored 20 goals, 25 assists, we can come to a conclusion as to what we'd want to pay him in terms of the value he contributes to a team. That includes looking not just at his point totals but the some of his contributions(defensive play, physicality and so on). We combine that with a player's contract status and can figure out a rough estimation of value and what his team should pay him.

When you look at people who Kessel can be legitimately compared to of similar contributions, status and what they're getting paid, I tend to think Kessel is paid a little bit on the high side for the value he brings to the Leafs.

Where value gets hard though is in the unknown.  What does he do in the dressing room?  What is he like on the bench when the game is on the line?  Do those things really matter?  How much stock can be put in to the intangibles?

 

[maplesyrup]

How much stock can be put in to the intangibles?

I'm sorry but it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hot for intangibles.

 

[Tigger]

Once Dion had a chance to get over his injury fully I thought he was pretty effective on the ice, not sure what to say about his presence in the dressing room.

 

[Bender]

Once Dion had a chance to get over his injury fully I thought he was pretty effective on the ice, not sure what to say about his presence in the dressing room.

I was very happy with his performance after his injury. He seemed a lot more poised out there, making fewer mistakes.

 

[maplesyrup]

Once Dion had a chance to get over his injury fully I thought he was pretty effective on the ice, not sure what to say about his presence in the dressing room.

I was very happy with his performance after his injury. He seemed a lot more poised out there, making fewer mistakes.

Yes. He was quite solid. Not spectacular but pretty good.

 

[Britishbulldog]

What is your point? 

It's really pretty simple if you go back to that first post of mine about it.

All of us have a handle on what a player's worth. When we look at a hypothetical player, say a guy who scored 20 goals, 25 assists, we can come to a conclusion as to what we'd want to pay him in terms of the value he contributes to a team. That includes looking not just at his point totals but the some of his contributions(defensive play, physicality and so on). We combine that with a player's contract status and can figure out a rough estimation of value and what his team should pay him.

When you look at people who Kessel can be legitimately compared to of similar contributions, status and what they're getting paid, I tend to think Kessel is paid a little bit on the high side for the value he brings to the Leafs.

You'd make a bad GM.

...that was kind of my original question.  Nik nailed it.  My concern is that everything needs to be taken into account when assessing the salaries.  I must be a bad GM as well. 

Kessel is really good but Datsyuk can actually change the momentum of the game himself.  So can Ovi, Crosby and others.  Kessel seems to need more support to be effective than most top players.

This year some of the UFA deals were nuts (Fleischmann 12 goals/45 games $18 mil/4 yrs, Joel Ward 10 goals, $3 mil, Leino 19 goals $27mil/6 yrs), others seems to correct themselves (Commodore $1 mil from $3.75 mil, Vandermeer $1 mil from $2.3, Gagne $2.5 from $5.25, and ofcourse Giguere).

I just hope that some of the players will live up to their contracts, get traded or take a pay cut next contract.

 

[cw]

If I were paying them, I would give an opinion on who is overpaid.

Lucky you! Free tickets and all! 

 

[Damian]

If I were paying them, I would give an opinion on who is overpaid.

Cop outter!