Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

Read TML fan's quote again that I responded to. That's where I got it.

Even that quote doesn't necessarily mean that he believes it's only true of Carlyle, just that it's a philosophy that Carlyle clearly espouses. And, really, it's just one of many things that people dislike about Carlyle's coaching strategies.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

A little perspective would be that he's nowhere close to being the only coach who does this.  Not sure why so many think that some of the approaches Carlyle uses are that unique. 

 

[Stickytape]

And TBH, if it's Ashton/Orr getting less minutes so Kessel/JVR can be out there a lot more, I'm all for it.

Me too, usually.  My specific beef, though, was while they were up 3-0 early in the first of back-to-back road games.  There are times to stretch the bench and times to shorten it.  This was not a very good time to shorten it.

This makes it seem like less of a strategy and more of a thing Carlyle just does all the time because he doesn't understand what he's doing.  And that's what has me worried.

Imagine if Carlyle was doing something actually wrong here, like playing Orr 15 mins / night and limiting Kessel to the same.

OMG don't give him ideas.  ;D

 

[Stickytape]

A little perspective would be that he's nowhere close to being the only coach who does this.  Not sure why so many think that some of the approaches Carlyle uses are that unique. 

Good lord, that graph.  And aside from Vancouver, that is not good company to be in.

 

[Kin]

A little perspective would be that he's nowhere close to being the only coach who does this.  Not sure why so many think that some of the approaches Carlyle uses are that unique. 

But how many of those are Orr/McLaren?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But how many of those are Orr/McLaren?

I don't see what that matters. A wasted roster spot is a wasted roster spot.

 

[bustaheims]

Imagine if Carlyle was doing something actually wrong here, like playing Orr 15 mins / night and limiting Kessel to the same.

The thing is, though, he likely is doing something that's actually wrong. I mean, look at the top 5 teams in the league and how they use their lineup:

Anaheim doesn't have a single player that's played at least 25 games that's averaging less than 11:22 a night. Chicago doesn't have any that average less than 10:02. St Louis has only 2 averaging less than 11:00 and none with less than 8:08. Pittsburgh - no one less than 10:54. San Jose - 1 with less than 11:07.

The Leafs, meanwhile, have 2 players who have played at least 25 games that average 6:11 or less, plus a handful of others who are close to but not quite at the 25 game mark that average(d) 8:55 or less, and 3 players among the top 30 forwards in average TOI. None of the top 5 teams have more than 1. I really doubt it's a coincidence that the top teams use a much more balanced ice time distribution than middle of the pack teams like the Leafs and Canucks do.

 

[Corn Flake]

But how many of those are Orr/McLaren?

I don't see what that matters. A wasted roster spot is a wasted roster spot.

how about less than 5 mins? 6 mins? 6.5 mins?  What's the difference there in the big picture between the Leafs and other teams?

 

[Kin]

But how many of those are Orr/McLaren?

I don't see what that matters. A wasted roster spot is a wasted roster spot.

Well, it only matters to the extent that "the team shouldn't be using a roster spot on an enforcer" and "the team should be playing its 4th line more" are two separate, if related, criticisms. The way I read that chart, any team that had an enforcer that was more or less stapled to the bench would rate pretty highly but it wouldn't speak much to how, say, the 10th and 11th forwards were used or the wisdom of playing a 4th line 7 or 8 minutes a night vs. playing it 10 or 11 minutes a night.

 

[Corn Flake]

Imagine if Carlyle was doing something actually wrong here, like playing Orr 15 mins / night and limiting Kessel to the same.

The thing is, though, he likely is doing something that's actually wrong. I mean, look at the top 5 teams in the league and how they use their lineup:

Anaheim doesn't have a single player that's played at least 25 games that's averaging less than 11:22 a night. Chicago doesn't have any that average less than 10:02. St Louis has only 2 averaging less than 11:00 and none with less than 8:08. Pittsburgh - no one less than 10:54. San Jose - 1 with less than 11:07.

The Leafs, meanwhile, have 2 players who have played at least 25 games that average 6:11 or less, plus a handful of others who are close to but not quite at the 25 game mark that average(d) 8:55 or less, and 3 players among the top 30 forwards in average TOI. None of the top 5 teams have more than 1. I really doubt it's a coincidence that the top teams use a much more balance ice time distribution than middle of the pack teams like the Leafs and Canucks do.

So you are comparing the Leafs to contenders, who typically all would be deeper with better quality bottom end players.  Those teams aren't where they are because of how their coaches manage 4th line ice time, they are where they are with the help of really GOOD quality 4th line players.

Again, perspective here is needed.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Well, it only matters to the extent that "the team shouldn't be using a roster spot on an enforcer" and "the team should be playing its 4th line more" are two separate, if related, criticisms. The way I read that chart, any team that had an enforcer that was more or less stapled to the bench would rate pretty highly but it wouldn't speak much to how, say, the 10th and 11th forwards were used or the wisdom of playing a 4th line 7 or 8 minutes a night vs. playing it 10 or 11 minutes a night.

Fair enough. If you take out Orr and McLaren you're left with 23 times a guy played 4 or less minutes. That's still good for 2nd in the league behind Vancouver.

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

 

[Kin]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

 

[bustaheims]

So you are comparing the Leafs to contenders, who typically all would be deeper with better quality bottom end players.  Those teams aren't where they are because of how their coaches manage 4th line ice time, they are where they are with the help of really GOOD quality 4th line players.

Again, perspective here is needed.

These are the teams the Leafs should be comparing themselves with, because these are the teams the Leafs are ultimately striving to become as good as or better than. They should be looking at how their roster is built and how it's being used and see the glaring issue that comes with A) having 2 face punchers on the roster and B) having a coach that is overplaying the top line and not using the 4th line. I mean, these are relatively easy problems to fix. The top teams don't have 4th lines that are leaps and bounds ahead of what the Leafs could be putting out there if Orr and McLaren weren't on the roster - and, let's not kid ourselves - they're there mostly because Carlyle wants them there. I mean, there's no reason the Leafs can't dress a 4th line of Ashton-McClement-D'Amigo, and play that line 9 or 10 minutes a night on average. That 4th line wouldn't be drastically behind what any of the top teams are putting out there, either. It's not like they're putting a bunch of 20+ goal guys on their 4th lines. They're also filled with grinders, defensive specialist, etc. And, with the top line, it's very possible that less could be more. Instead of burning them out early in the game, let them save some energy for when the team needs them to come through with a late goal - something the team has been painfully bad at this season. The domino effect could also help keep the other lines just a little more rested and help keep them sharp. I mean, it's really not a surprised the Leafs have given up so many late goals and haven't scored many themselves. Guys are being overused because there are others that are being underused or who shouldn't be being used at all.

 

[TML fan]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

You just made your own argument.

 

[Kin]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

You just made your own argument.

I...isn't that what I normally do?

 

[TML fan]

Carter Ashton alone has played 4 or less 7 different times, and there's 17 teams in the league with totals under that.

Yeah, that's not a decision I love but that's more about what I think might be best for Ashton and less about seeing a really persuasive argument that you should be giving more time to the worst players on the roster.

You just made your own argument.

I...isn't that what I normally do?

Yes.

 

[Kin]

It's not like they're putting a bunch of 20+ goal guys on their 4th lines.

Well, not to make a thing of it but the last game that Chicago played their 4th line had two guys who've scored 20 in the NHL and one who's scored 17.

 

[Kin]

Yes.

Well, then I'm confused.

 

[TML fan]

Yes.

Well, then I'm confused.

Excellent....it's all falling into place...

 

[Highlander]

Carter "Home Alone" Ashton is becoming a decent little hockey player.  I was ready to right him off last year but he came to camp with an attitude and seems to have an upside that keeps growing.