sens @ Leafs - Apr. 5th, 7:30pm - CityTV, Fan 590
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
Deebo said:
Even management groups don't really lose on purpose. They just aren't putting their team in the absolute best position to win games. Tanking is basically just a very aggressive rebuild strategy.
I don't think anyone is expecting the Leafs to lose on purpose. I am hoping they lose enough to finish with the 4th and at worst, 5th pick.
I hear 5 names discussed most often as the top prospects in this draft. I would rather the Leafs be able to draft one of these players. Does this mean that there can be no busts in the top 5? Of course not. Maybe the true gem of the draft ends up being drafted later. There are always maybes and ifs when it comes to the draft as it's not an exact science, but the odds of picking a better player go up with the better pick. It's that simple to me.
I hear 5 names discussed most often as the top prospects in this draft. I would rather the Leafs be able to draft one of these players. Does this mean that there can be no busts in the top 5? Of course not. Maybe the true gem of the draft ends up being drafted later. There are always maybes and ifs when it comes to the draft as it's not an exact science, but the odds of picking a better player go up with the better pick. It's that simple to me.
corsi fenwick said:
Yeah but it's one draft of many where the Leafs will be picking high. There will be other opportunities. I think there is some underestimating of just how long this rebuild is going to take, and just how bad the Leafs are going to be for the next several years. Getting a Strome or a Marner this year is not going to make it go any faster. Neither of those guys are generational talents, and while yes they are very good players, there are likely going to be players just as good if not better than them available in later drafts at spots the Leafs are likely to be drafting.
Wanting them to lose because of a bunch of maybes seems counter productive and getting mad when they win is just downright annoying.
TML fan said:
I agree that the rebuild, if the Leafs really do commit to it, is going to be a multi-year process with all the mistakes and second-guessing that will come with it. I hope they get most of it right though, and I think it could make a difference whether they pick 4th or 6th.
The other thing is, I don't have any cheer left in me for this version of the Leafs. I really don't know if they just packed it in as a group, or they just aren't good enough, or some combination of that. I have my opinions, but for now I'd rather see them get the season over with in a way that may improve the future of the team.
Whatever happens happens, though.
Nik the Trik said:
Well if they choose 4th vs 5 or 6 they might draft *that* player that might have been drafted at 4th by another team, or they might be able to drop from 4th to down a few picks with a trade, pick up a bonus 2nd rounder and they might still get the player they deem to be the one they wanted.
In my 50+ years of cheering, yes cheering, for this team, it's had 3 (I discount the 60's as it's not really in the memory banks) distinct eras where it was a whole
lot of fun. Late 70's with Darryl and Borje et all, Dougie et all for a few years and a small window in 2000s. That's it. What's that? Maybe 10 years of 45? The rest has been a debacle of epic proportions that would send any leaf-tattooed-on-their-behind fan screaming into therapy.
Yes I know the players are playing for next year's jobs and would never tank but I have a right to be choked when they win at this time because I want this rebuild (for the first time I might add) to be as Leaf-proof as possible. I'm getting too frigging teed off at getting sucked into
the latest savior only to see them screw it up again and again.
So I will cheer for them to lose right now if it ultimately will benefit them - and it has a greater
chance that it will benefit them.
So I don't have to re-evaluate anything.
Redleaf
Active member
Deebo said:
I wasnt signalling out just the players. I believe management made a decision to tank when the players decided they were no longer interested in playing their hardest, game in and game out.
My issue is, why have the players decided to turn it back on again with only a few games left in the schedule? Because, to me at least, I see a much more concerted effort to win games now, when the only thing really left to decide is their draft position.
So, you either pack it in, like they did back in December, and stay 'packed in' or you play with heart and soul an entire season like they should have. But what is the purpose of playing like heros now, after all is lost BUT a top 4 draft pick?
CarltonTheBear said:
I think the concern is dropping to 5th by overtaking Carolina, and potentially being pushed to 6th due to the lottery, where 6th appears to be a noticeable drop in talent.
I think everyone here is perfectly happy getting one of Hanafin, Strome, or Marner.
Stickytape
New member
AvroArrow said:
Also: Whether the Leafs finish 4th or 5th from the bottom, it will always suck if the Canes win the lottery. We will always feel burned, and forever ask ourselves "what if?" However, this is slightly less likely to occur if the Leafs finish 4th, right? So that's all I'm hoping for. I want the minimum possible chance of feeling like we missed the first pick by "that much".
GhostofPotvin29
New member
AvroArrow said:
That wasn't the point Carlton was trying to make though. I think it goes without saying that we'd all rather see the Leafs remain in the top 5.
RedLeaf said:
I don't think management made a decision to "tank" at all. I think management realized that this team wasn't going anywhere and made a decision to finally and properly rebuild the team. "Tanking" is a natural side effect of that realization. I don't think the players truly stopped trying until that decision was publicly revealed and they started selling off assets. Yes the team was playing abysmally before that but what I think is going on here is people are refusing to acknowledge just how bad this team actually was, and are attributing this free fall to some kind of collective decision to just stop trying.
If you examine the pattern of play from previous seasons, I think it's more likely that what you're seeing is the true nature of the team, and although it's possible (maybe even probable) that certain players (namely the ones with contracts beyond this season) may have seen the writing on the wall and realized that there was no point in giving a maximum effort to a team that has given up on being competitive, and to some players, given up on them. I mean, if you knew that you were getting laid off in 3 months, would you keep trying? Maybe to get another job, but some of these guys have contracts and their poor play only affects the Maple Leafs, not them...so if the Leafs don't get max value on the trade market, that's really a Maple Leafs problem and nothing that concerns the players who will no longer be playing for them. The fact that players may have given up on the team is a reflection on the team and the horrendous job they've done transitioning into this rebuild and keeping their current players motivated to play their best.
As for them "playing like heroes" I think you're overstating it. They are getting results now, which probably has more to do with the natural ebb and flow of the season; players coming off cold streaks and the team starting to get more bounces. Also with the season winding down its the last time these guys will be playing hockey for a while, and for many on this team, the last chance to find jobs for next season. There is no magical switch.
Kin
New member
lamajama said:
I'm sure you think you're being clever here but you're just making my point for me. You're not even cheering for anything concrete. You're not encouraging them towards a goal or even wanting them to do a specific thing. You're getting mad at the team for winning games for no real, solid reason. You don't know anyone would be willing to trade up, you don't know what they would be willing to pay for it. You're pulling your hair out for nothing and certainly not anything that you can control. Are you going to do this for the next few years as they rebuild? Boo every goal? Get mad when they try hard and win exciting games?
Kin
New member
RedLeaf said:
It's true everywhere. Rebuilding teams know that they're not putting champions out there but they still expect their coaches to do their jobs and their players to do theirs. All of those people have their own careers to think about. David Booth has no responsibility to care about where the Leafs draft. He's not going to play worse to fulfill that goal. Until Peter Horacheck has a contract with this team, he has to conduct himself in a way that will make him appeal to another team that might hire him.
Over the next few years, the players on this team are going to try and win games. If management is doing their job correctly they won't win a lot but that's not going to be for lack of effort from the guys on the ice. You're going to have to make your peace with that.
Redleaf
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
That's the first response you've posted in years where I actually agree with you on whole heartily. I get it. It just bothers me how they seem to turn it on after the fat lady has already sung her tune and left the building. Lets hope Carolina can win a game or two to finish this off.
Kin
New member
RedLeaf said:
But that's why you need to read what TML Fan said in his last post. "How it seems" to you is the exact opposite of the truth. The Leafs were out of it when they made the Santorelli/Franson trade. They were 12 points out of a playoff spot, tied for the 5th worst record in the league. After the trade, they went 5-14-1 over their next 20 games.
On February 15th, it was realistically possible that the Leafs would finish with anywhere from the 4th to the 10th worst record in the league. Where they are now is just about as conceivably bad as it could be. Teams like the Devils, Blue Jackets, Flyers...they're teams that picked up their game when it was meaningless. The Leafs did the opposite, they just weren't going to lose every single game. Bounces would go their way. Some of their bad luck would turn good. Don't confuse when it's happening with why.
RedLeaf said:
Have they really turned it on? Yes, they're 3-1-1 in their past 5 games, but in 3 of the games they picked up points in I'd say that our goaltending pretty much stole them. In those 3 games they averaged 45 shots against. And they also blew a 3-1 lead against the Buffalo Sabres for their only regulation loss. So that's 1 game in the 5-game stretch where they actually outplayed the other team. That doesn't sound like a team that turned it on, that sounds like a team that's playing in a sport where even bad teams playing poorly can pick up points.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/definitive-marc-methot-ot-shot-angle/
Footage of the Methot shot/non-goal for anybody curious. The controversey over it had been brewing quite a bit up to this point. Even Lupul chimed in saying that if it was a goal then the NHL should make it right (which they obviously actually couldn't):
[tweet]585201404555481088[/tweet]
[tweet]585202321908494336[/tweet]
Footage of the Methot shot/non-goal for anybody curious. The controversey over it had been brewing quite a bit up to this point. Even Lupul chimed in saying that if it was a goal then the NHL should make it right (which they obviously actually couldn't):
[tweet]585201404555481088[/tweet]
[tweet]585202321908494336[/tweet]
GhostofPotvin29
New member
"Controversy"
I don't even understand why it's still being talked about.
I don't even understand why it's still being talked about.
Potvin29 said:
What else do sens fans have to talk about?