So, about Phil Kessel...

[sickbeast]

Maybe. It still shows that all those gms were complete tools though, particularly Burke and Ferguson. Nonis was equally bad with the Clarkson signing.

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe. It still shows that all those gms were complete tools though, particularly Burke and Ferguson. Nonis was equally bad with the Clarkson signing.

Oh, I don't think anyone is debating that. It's just more that it's time to put that past behind us. I mean, the Kessel trade happened 6 years ago, and that's the most recent of the trades you referenced. 6 years is an eternity in the sports world.

 

[sickbeast]

Maybe. It still shows that all those gms were complete tools though, particularly Burke and Ferguson. Nonis was equally bad with the Clarkson signing.

Oh, I don't think anyone is debating that. It's just more that it's time to put that past behind us. I mean, the Kessel trade happened 6 years ago, and that's the most recent of the trades you referenced. 6 years is an eternity in the sports world.

Yes but it just shows that serious long term damage was done to the club.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Shanny/Hunter/Dubas/Babcock team could be the best thing to happen to this franchise since they last won the Cup. Those guys never come together if it wasn't for those terrible trades.

Thanks Fergy!

 

[sickbeast]

Those trades will never look good to me. Never.

 

[bustaheims]

Yes but it just shows that serious long term damage was done to the club.

It's actually more that it shows the opportunities to correct the damage were squandered, but, at the same time, that's not exactly new information or anything that people who follow the team aren't well aware of. It sucks, but it really appears as though the team has turned over a new leaf. It's time to move on from the trauma of previous regimes.

And, honestly, if we're digging up the past, the truth is the team's struggles can still be traced back to problems from the Ballard era. Because of the failures of his reign of terror, the team spent the next 25 year borrowing from the future to try to fix the present.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

The Shanny/Hunter/Dubas/Babcock team could be the best thing to happen to this franchise since they last won the Cup. Those guys never come together if it wasn't for those terrible trades.

Thanks Fergy!

So, wait.... you're saying we "front office tanked" to get elite management...?

 

[rdowdall]

Good diagnosis. I think an intense conditioning regimen is just the thing to vault a 37-goal scorer with a 3rd line centre into a 40-goal guy. Because scoring the 6th most points and 7th most goals in the NHL since 2011 doesn't mean anything if the player looks like he isn't ripped.

Wait a second...I have the answer.  The fans have been looking at this all wrong.  Kessel doesn't need to get in better shape, he needs to get in worse shape.  And he doesn't need to play with a 3rd line centre, he needs to play with a 4th line centre.  That's how he's going to get to 40 goals.

By now, you may have guessed I'm speaking ironically

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Shanny/Hunter/Dubas/Babcock team could be the best thing to happen to this franchise since they last won the Cup. Those guys never come together if it wasn't for those terrible trades.

Thanks Fergy!

So, wait.... you're saying we "front office tanked" to get elite management...?

Exactly! And people said that MLSE would never be up for a patient rebuild.

 

[moon111]

Guys just imagine for a second that we had seguin, Hamilton, rask, and Steen. It's so painful.

If the Leafs still had Rask, they almost certainly would not have ended up with Seguin or Hamilton. He's good enough to have pushed the Leafs up in the standings a couple spots. So, I mean, it's nice to dream and all, but, no Raycroft deal means no Toskala, and no Toskala means the Leafs are a better team in the first years of Kessel's contract.

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

 

[hockeyfan1]

It looks like the Islanders, of the teams mentioned, are in the best position for cap room and a potential Kessel trade.  The idea of a Ryan Strome coming to the Leafs is enticing.  He's a centre and would suit them well.  Others such as  Reinhart (defence) or Dal College (left wing) are sound options.

How about Arizona?  Kessel for their first rounder (Hanifin).  This isn't thorough (the Leafs would need to add a player).  It's highly improbable since the 'Yotes are not beyond dealing away a highly-touted defensive prospect.

 

[93forever]

Guys just imagine for a second that we had seguin, Hamilton, rask, and Steen. It's so painful.

If the Leafs still had Rask, they almost certainly would not have ended up with Seguin or Hamilton. He's good enough to have pushed the Leafs up in the standings a couple spots. So, I mean, it's nice to dream and all, but, no Raycroft deal means no Toskala, and no Toskala means the Leafs are a better team in the first years of Kessel's contract.

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Raycroft was not a decent goalie from the start.  Having bad defensemen and a poor defensive style made things worse.  Winning 37 games with a SV % below .900 and GAA 3.00 showed how poor he was and it was in those games where he let in those horrible soft goals that cost the Leafs points and a playoff spot.

 

[Kin]

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Raycroft was 26 in 06-07. Rask was 27 last year. Rask, in both his 26 and 25 year old seasons, faced more shots per night than Raycroft did in 06-07.

It has nothing to do with how quickly they were brought along. Raycroft just wasn't good.

 

[bustaheims]

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Sure, but no one is talking about the 06/07 season. I'm talking about the 09/10 season - and, that season, Rask started a little more than half the games the Bruins played and put up excellent numbers, while facing shots at an almost identical rate to what the Leafs allowed that season. Granted, score effects and such play a part in those numbers, but the Leafs were not a defensive mess that season. It was more that, between Toskala and Gustavsson, they received terrible goaltending. Rask would have been a significant improvement there - enough to keep the Leafs from ending up with the 2nd overall pick.

Rask was never going to be brought up to the Leafs for 06/07 any way. If they didn't trade for Raycroft (and, subsequently, Toskala), they almost certainly would have signed one of the many UFA goalies available that summer.

 

[Leaflifer]

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Sure, but no one is talking about the 06/07 season. I'm talking about the 09/10 season - and, that season, Rask started a little more than half the games the Bruins played and put up excellent numbers, while facing shots at an almost identical rate to what the Leafs allowed that season. Granted, score effects and such play a part in those numbers, but the Leafs were not a defensive mess that season. It was more that, between Toskala and Gustavsson, they received terrible goaltending. Rask would have been a significant improvement there - enough to keep the Leafs from ending up with the 2nd overall pick.

Rask was never going to be brought up to the Leafs for 06/07 any way. If they didn't trade for Raycroft (and, subsequently, Toskala), they almost certainly would have signed one of the many UFA goalies available that summer.

Not so sure. I don't think the Leafs were a goalie away from being an upper tier team. I remember other issues with the team at that time...although I do remember there was a large focus on goaltending.

I do agree that goaltending was a problem though.

Personally I was extremely disappointed the Leafs didn't start a full rebuild at that time, WAY more so than a goalie change. They had some assets that were rated pretty highly at that time and the prospect cupboard was pretty bare.

 

[bustaheims]

Not so sure. I don't think the Leafs were a goalie away from being an upper tier team. I remember other issues with the team at that time...although I do remember there was a large focus on goaltending.

I do agree that goaltending was a problem though.

Personally I was extremely disappointed the Leafs didn't start a full rebuild at that time, WAY more so than a goalie change. They had some assets that were rated pretty highly at that time and the prospect cupboard was pretty bare.

Who said anything about being an upper tier team? All I said that Rask would have been enough of an upgrade in net to keep them out of the basement. They still wouldn't have been a good team. They still would have had other issues. They just wouldn't have been the 2nd worst team in the league.

 

[93forever]

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Sure, but no one is talking about the 06/07 season. I'm talking about the 09/10 season - and, that season, Rask started a little more than half the games the Bruins played and put up excellent numbers, while facing shots at an almost identical rate to what the Leafs allowed that season. Granted, score effects and such play a part in those numbers, but the Leafs were not a defensive mess that season. It was more that, between Toskala and Gustavsson, they received terrible goaltending. Rask would have been a significant improvement there - enough to keep the Leafs from ending up with the 2nd overall pick.

Rask was never going to be brought up to the Leafs for 06/07 any way. If they didn't trade for Raycroft (and, subsequently, Toskala), they almost certainly would have signed one of the many UFA goalies available that summer.

Not so sure. I don't think the Leafs were a goalie away from being an upper tier team. I remember other issues with the team at that time...although I do remember there was a large focus on goaltending.

I do agree that goaltending was a problem though.

Personally I was extremely disappointed the Leafs didn't start a full rebuild at that time, WAY more so than a goalie change. They had some assets that were rated pretty highly at that time and the prospect cupboard was pretty bare.

For the Leafs it was never about a long term solution but rather short term gap fills for the present not for the future including player development or the willingness to keep draft picks/prospects.  Not having a plan of success also kept high level talent from signing with the Leafs imho.   
             

 

[mr grieves]

For the Leafs it was never about a long term solution but rather short term gap fills for the present not for the future including player development or the willingness to keep draft picks/prospects.  Not having a plan of success also kept high level talent from signing with the Leafs imho.     

There hasn't been much high-level talent available to sign lately. But, yeah, short term gap fills have characterized the Leafs since 2005 or so.

 

[Bender]

Not so sure. I don't think the Leafs were a goalie away from being an upper tier team. I remember other issues with the team at that time...although I do remember there was a large focus on goaltending.

I do agree that goaltending was a problem though.

Personally I was extremely disappointed the Leafs didn't start a full rebuild at that time, WAY more so than a goalie change. They had some assets that were rated pretty highly at that time and the prospect cupboard was pretty bare.

Who said anything about being an upper tier team? All I said that Rask would have been enough of an upgrade in net to keep them out of the basement. They still wouldn't have been a good team. They still would have had other issues. They just wouldn't have been the 2nd worst team in the league.

Let alone they wouldn't have continued to make terrible judgments in picking their goaltenders. People always said well who else were they going to get if they didn't get Andrew Raycroft? Manny Legace was a free agent IIRC. They almost literally could've taken anyone that was a FA or on the waiver wire and had similar levels of goaltending that they received for Rask and a first rounder.

I think not recognizing the need for a rebuild at that time was the biggest problem, and here we are 10 years later.

 

[Arn]

Last year was the first time Rask faced the same amount of shots as Raycroft did in `06-07.  If you really look at it, Rask was brought along at a pace that Toronto would never have afforded.  He's just broke the 4000 minutes played mark.  In Toronto, he would of been throw to the wolves, and failed.  Maybe not Raycroft failed, but don't think he'd be much higher then Bernier is right now.

Raycroft was 26 in 06-07. Rask was 27 last year. Rask, in both his 26 and 25 year old seasons, faced more shots per night than Raycroft did in 06-07.

It has nothing to do with how quickly they were brought along. Raycroft just wasn't good.

So good that the last season he played (13/14) he put up a 2.88 and 0.897%. In the Swedish 2nd division. Pogge went 2.16 and 0.921% in the same league.