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So, about Phil Kessel...

Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.
 
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!
 
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.
 
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

Unfortunately, Kessel appears to be in some kind of head space where he sees his job pretty much entirely just to generate offence. Perhaps he's been cut too much slack to be anything more than one dimensional, and the Leafs essentially blessed that by rewarding him with a big contract for that. But now that his offence has been firing blanks for most of the second half, he has nothing else to fall back on. Fans could perhaps forgive the lack of offence if he were busting his tail every night. But it seems like the only energy he has is when the puck is on his stick.
 
He's really hard to figure out. In the last game, there was one play in the defensive zone where Kessel was very close to one of the opponent forwards along the boards, but instead of engaging and fighting for the puck, he just turned away. The announcers even commented on that lack of effort. But I've also recently seen him be the only forward back and he actually broke up a potential scoring chance in front of the net (not sure if it was also the Bruin game, all the games have merged together at this point).
 
Nik the Trik said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
Yeah, I was just trying to tie it in to the Phil discussion, as I didn't know where else to post that link.  I wasn't really trying to indict Kessel, but show something that I think points to character. 

On the Leafs, I know of Lupul who does Lup's Troops, which is pretty cool. Other than that, you don't really hear of much that the Leafs do in the community. 

That's not to say that they don't do much, just that you don't hear about it much, at least not here in Ottawa, or on this board, which is where I get my Toronto centric information.

Again this is the sort of thing that can be double edged.  If it doesn't get reported people think you don't do it.  If it does get reported, people say it's a media grab.

I think it's the kind of thing that maybe more accurately speaks to this idea of how this Leafs team is maybe a particularly unlikable group more so than "character" in how it relates to hockey. If you look at the King Clancy award, for instance, you'll see that just about as often as not it goes to a fairly mediocre hockey player.

Being a good, generous person is an admirable quality, sure, and one to be applauded but I don't think that's really what we mean when we talk about character and how it relates to actually winning hockey games. I use this example a lot but Michael Jordan basically seems like a deeply unpleasant, unlikable person but his deeply unlikable qualities sort of manifested themselves as being uniquely suited to sports. Hyper-competitiveness, a tendency to hold grudges for the tiniest of slights, an interest in embarrassing anyone who challenged him...bad qualities in a human being, ok ones in a Shooting Guard. There have been a lot of hockey players like that and I think an all-time team of players who've been described as jerks would hold their own against a team of sweethearts.

So "character" as it applies to sports, I think it's important to remember, really just means whatever someone wants it to mean in a given moment.

Yeah good point.  I guess it just goes back to the fact that this team hasn't been able to win.  If they had been winning, then a lot of these discussions wouldn't be happening.  I don't think that it has been  a lack of talent that has caused the losing.  It's the lack of the intangibles that are needed in order to win.  You can't quantify those.  That's what makes it so frustrating because you can see talent, you can see skill, but you can't always see the will to win. 

I mean you are completely correct about a guy like Micheal Jordan, but then take a guy like Yzerman, who by all accounts wasn't like Micheal Jordan, but is still considered one of the greatest leaders and clutch players in the history of the NHL.
 
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.
 
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.
 
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.
 
Al14 said:
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.

And you're honestly suggesting these are the kinds of "younger players who earn far less money" you were talking about?
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.

And you're honestly suggesting these are the kinds of "younger players who earn far less money" you were talking about?

Not sure about exact amounts, however, Kessel is making $10 million for this season alone.  JvR and Bozak are making half of that amount, approximately. Ok, so JvR is only 2 years younger, and, Bozak is 2 years older.  I stand corrected!

However, I still firmly believe that some of Kessel's teammates will tend to play a lazy game when they see a high priced player mailing it in.  It's human nature...  Well, if he is too lazy to care about trying hard at his salary, why the hell should I when I get a fraction of what he is paid?
 
Al14 said:
Well, if he is too lazy to care about trying hard at his salary, why the hell should I when I get a fraction of what he is paid?

So that one day you can get paid 10 million dollars?
 
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.

And you're honestly suggesting these are the kinds of "younger players who earn far less money" you were talking about?

Not sure about exact amounts, however, Kessel is making $10 million for this season alone.  JvR and Bozak are making half of that amount, approximately. Ok, so JvR is only 2 years younger, and, Bozak is 2 years older.  I stand corrected!

However, I still firmly believe that some of Kessel's teammates will tend to play a lazy game when they see a high priced player mailing it in.  It's human nature...  Well, if he is too lazy to care about trying hard at his salary, why the hell should I when I get a fraction of what he is paid?

Assuming the player has no competitive spirit and no pride that would otherwise resist lazy impulses, then simply to stay in the league and/or to earn their next contract.  But if you're talking about players with no elite natural talent, no competitive spirit, no pride, no desire to remain in the NHL and no desire to ensure a solid, steady paycheque, then I guess you have a point.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
Damian said:
Al14 said:
cw said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
So there has been a lot of talk about character.  Here is an example of it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152769425102686&fref=nf

Sorry it is a facebook link, I couldn't find another one. 

That's not to say that Phil Kessel doesn't do things like this, because I don't know if he does or not.

He did some with kids who had cancer as he's a cancer survivor

We tend to forget that Kessel had to endure a cancer scare!

Whats your point? Many people overcome cancer every day. Mario and Koivu come to mind. Mario came back and still owned....These things are supposed to make you stronger. Phil? I dunno.... he sure doesnt play like he's inspired at all...When youre making the kind of sheckles he is, theres no excuse for mailing it it every night. None.

I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.

And you're honestly suggesting these are the kinds of "younger players who earn far less money" you were talking about?

Not sure about exact amounts, however, Kessel is making $10 million for this season alone.  JvR and Bozak are making half of that amount, approximately. Ok, so JvR is only 2 years younger, and, Bozak is 2 years older.  I stand corrected!

However, I still firmly believe that some of Kessel's teammates will tend to play a lazy game when they see a high priced player mailing it in.  It's human nature...  Well, if he is too lazy to care about trying hard at his salary, why the hell should I when I get a fraction of what he is paid?

Assuming the player has no competitive spirit and no pride that would otherwise resist lazy impulses, then simply to stay in the league and/or to earn their next contract.  But if you're talking about players with no elite natural talent, no competitive spirit, no pride, no desire to remain in the NHL and no desire to ensure a solid, steady paycheque, then I guess you have a point.

Do you work harder at your job to make up for the deficiencies in production caused by your lazy work colleagues?  Just wondering!  ???
 
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Al14 said:
TML fan said:
Al14 said:
RedLeaf said:
Al14 said:
I agree, Kessel needs to earn his pay cheque and quit mailing it in game after game. He is setting a bad example for the younger players who earn far less money.  Why should they work hard when Kessel doesn't!

To stay in the league, for one.

They can stay in the League by going through the motions just like Kessel does.  There is a huge difference between working hard for appearance sake, and, working hard to succeed.

Nobody on this team is good enough to go through the motions and stay in the league like Kessel is.

Oh, I don't know, just maybe JvR, and maybe even Bozak can.  I think we actually witnessed this from these 2 as well.

And you're honestly suggesting these are the kinds of "younger players who earn far less money" you were talking about?

Not sure about exact amounts, however, Kessel is making $10 million for this season alone.  JvR and Bozak are making half of that amount, approximately. Ok, so JvR is only 2 years younger, and, Bozak is 2 years older.  I stand corrected!

However, I still firmly believe that some of Kessel's teammates will tend to play a lazy game when they see a high priced player mailing it in.  It's human nature...  Well, if he is too lazy to care about trying hard at his salary, why the hell should I when I get a fraction of what he is paid?

Assuming the player has no competitive spirit and no pride that would otherwise resist lazy impulses, then simply to stay in the league and/or to earn their next contract.  But if you're talking about players with no elite natural talent, no competitive spirit, no pride, no desire to remain in the NHL and no desire to ensure a solid, steady paycheque, then I guess you have a point.

Do you work harder at your job to make up for the deficiencies in production caused by your lazy work colleagues?  Just wondering!  ???

I would and I have.  Frankly, that motivation to succeed and to prove oneself to an employer and to peers is vital to lasting individual and team success.  I'm sorry for your employers that that idea is so foreign to you.  Certainly any young, unproven NHLer who would act as you would will not last long in the league, with the Leafs or with any other team.
 

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