Soshnikov traded to the Blues

[CarltonTheBear]

We used to be a team stacked with wing options, but it's entirely possible that in a span of a year we'll have lost: Leipsic, Soshnikov, JVR, Komarov, and Martin. All for possibly/likely just a 4th rounder... maybe less if we need to entice someone to take Martin. That's a lot of wing depth lost there however you cut it. And I'm not entirely sure our farm system is keeping up. The only Marlie I can see being a NHLer next season is Johnsson (and he's a lock as far as I'm concerned). Timashov and Bracco would be next up but they don't seem to be banging on that door exactly.

Korshkov and Grundstrom have certainly looked good since they've been drafted but they'll still need at least a year of AHL seasoning probably.

Basically, if the plan really is to have even two of JVR/Komarov/Martin off the team next season then Soshnikov could still have been a very valuable piece of this team going forward.

 

[herman]

We used to be a team stacked with wing options, but it's entirely possible that in a span of a year we'll have lost: Leipsic, Soshnikov, JVR, Komarov, and Martin. All for possibly/likely just a 4th rounder... maybe less if we need to entice someone to take Martin. That's a lot of wing depth lost there however you cut it. And I'm not entirely sure our farm system is keeping up. The only Marlie I can see being a NHLer next season is Johnsson (and he's a lock as far as I'm concerned). Timashov and Bracco would be next up but they don't seem to be banging on that door exactly.

Korshkov and Grundstrom have certainly looked good since they've been drafted but they'll still need at least a year of AHL seasoning probably.

Basically, if the plan really is to have even two of JVR/Komarov/Martin off the team next season then Soshnikov could still have been a very valuable piece of this team going forward.

I think Komarov gets re-signed (2 years). I think Aaltonen might get the 3rd line LW slot if we net a good centre.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Yeah, it's a tough one.

I'd have liked to see a UFA moved to create a spot and I refuse to believe that Soshnikov who can skate, shoot and PK would be any more of a liability than JVR at 5v5 and I think he's already on par with Komarov with more offensive skill.

I want to give the management the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't feel comfortable just appealing to authority and twisting the narrative to suit whichever story makes the front office look most rational.

All that being said, I don't know what the trade market looked like and I don't know what Soshnikov is like off the ice.

I think we all look at the team like its plug and play, but there is a human element to all of this too and I think that plays more of a role than we are privy to. Fans and analytically inclined people often dismiss this because it's a variable that they can't quantify.

 

[Highlander]

And from an asset management perspective, the Leafs netted a 4th-rder for an undrafted KHL signing.

Good point, something for nothing

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think Komarov gets re-signed (2 years). I think Aaltonen might get the 3rd line LW slot if we net a good centre.

Man the days of even considering Aaltonen-types on a 3rd line are so far behind us. I've thought before that he could be brought up next season as the 4C but I'm starting to have my doubts. For starters it's been clear since the beginning that Babcock hasn't been a fan of Moore but he never once gave Aaltonen a shot at the job. Even after the Gauthier experiment failed there was still time and opportunity for him to try Aaltonen too but he went right back to Moore. Not really a good sign.

And mid-season reviews from both Wheeler at the Athletic and MLHS weren't all that raving about him. It seems to me like he's benefited greatly from playing with Johnsson and either Kapanen or Soshnikov with the Marlies. And even in that context his point totals are a little underwhelming.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I guess my biggest issue is that I would have rather lost Leivo for nothing on waivers than traded Sosh for a 4th. I'll be happy if he proves me wrong but I don't see Leivo being in the NHL 1-2 years from now. Fringe guy who doesn't contribute much on the 4th line and isn't good enough to play regularly any higher.

 

[wnc096]

I guess my biggest issue is that I would have rather lost Leivo for nothing on waivers than traded Sosh for a 4th. I'll be happy if he proves me wrong but I don't see Leivo being in the NHL 1-2 years from now. Fringe guy who doesn't contribute much on the 4th line and isn't good enough to play regularly any higher.

what are you basing that on?  hes played like 20 games in the last two seasons.  I think if JVR walks, he could be a poor man's version of him.  15-20 goals.  No worse defensively

 

[CarltonTheBear]

what are you basing that on?  hes played like 20 games in the last two seasons.  I think if JVR walks, he could be a poor man's version of him.  15-20 goals.  No worse defensively

Well for starters I don't think the Leafs have done his career many favours lately. It's tough to develop yourself as a NHL player and improve when you're basically not playing for 2 straight seasons now. I think his career has stalled and it'll just be too difficult to get back to where he should be, on this team or any other team. I know people like to laugh about the whole Corrado saga because he ended up being a dud, but he was in the same situation. Players need to play to improve, and they both didn't get a chance to do that at critical points of their careers.

But to answer your question in a more blunt way I just don't think his skating is at a NHL-level and his other talents aren't good enough to offset that.

 

[Coco-puffs]

I guess my biggest issue is that I would have rather lost Leivo for nothing on waivers than traded Sosh for a 4th. I'll be happy if he proves me wrong but I don't see Leivo being in the NHL 1-2 years from now. Fringe guy who doesn't contribute much on the 4th line and isn't good enough to play regularly any higher.

Two years ago I would have agreed with you.  His skating held him back for a long time but now its at least adequate.  Considering his offensive skills are certainly middle-6 NHL-caliber I think he's actually a really good fit for 3rd line LW (sheltered offensive winger) and net front presence on the PP.  I think he's the most suitable player in the organization to fill JvR's shoes (except for Grundstrom- but he's at least a couple of years away).  He won't score as many goals as JvR but he'd probably give up less the other way too.

I think everyone reads into his lack of getting into the lineup a bit too much as that the Leafs don't value or like him and put his as fringe player.  The problem all along has been roles and lack of injury.

Here's the Mike Babcock breakdown of roles:
7/8 Forwards who can generate offense / play PP.  (Kadri - Marner - JvR - Bozak - Matthews - Nylander - Marleau - Brown)
4 Forwards who can play dependable hockey / on the PK  (Komarov - Hyman - Brown - Kapanen/Sosh/Moore)
1 Forward for "Toughness" (Martin - at least until 10 games ago or so when he finally went away from needing that role in his lineup)

Essentially, Leivo would only ever be able to fill in in the first "role" group.  When Matthews or Kadri went down and Nylander/Marleau had to move to C is unsurprisingly when Leivo got into the lineup.  Putting him on the 4th line with Martin when he got in was the mistake- he's not quick enough to generate offense entirely on his own but put him with decent players and I think he'd do well (last year when he was with Kadri he was pretty great). 

From an asset management perspective without a doubt I would have preferred to move one of our UFA wingers for assets.  But given the choice between losing Leivo on waivers for nothing or trading Sosh for a 4th I'd lean heavily to trading Sosh.  From a "who can fill in" in the above roles:

Offensive player:  Kapanen moving up or Leivo slotting in are really the only options in the org. that are ready.
Two-way player/PK:  Johnsson is probably ready.  So if one of Komarov, Hyman, or Kapanen get injured don't be surprised if Johnsson comes up and slots in ahead of Leivo.

 

[herman]

Two years ago I would have agreed with you.  His skating held him back for a long time but now its at least adequate.  Considering his offensive skills are certainly middle-6 NHL-caliber I think he's actually a really good fit for 3rd line LW (sheltered offensive winger) and net front presence on the PP.  I think he's the most suitable player in the organization to fill JvR's shoes (except for Grundstrom- but he's at least a couple of years away).  He won't score as many goals as JvR but he'd probably give up less the other way too.

JvR actually stands out significantly compared to the other players we slot into the 'net-front' role. His positioning to box out defenders and capitalize on rebounds, and how he handles passes is night and day compared to the likes of Hyman and Leivo. I wish I had access to the video library to demonstrate this. If I were the coaching staff, I'd have JvR coaching Hyman and co on crease top positioning (or at least using his video clips), and vice versa to JvR on Hyman's board work and forecheck.

I think everyone reads into his lack of getting into the lineup a bit too much as that the Leafs don't value or like him and put his as fringe player.  The problem all along has been roles and lack of injury.

Here's the Mike Babcock breakdown of roles:
7/8 Forwards who can generate offense / play PP.  (Kadri - Marner - JvR - Bozak - Matthews - Nylander - Marleau - Brown)
4 Forwards who can play dependable hockey / on the PK  (Komarov - Hyman - Brown - Kapanen/Sosh/Moore)
1 Forward for "Toughness" (Martin - at least until 10 games ago or so when he finally went away from needing that role in his lineup)

Essentially, Leivo would only ever be able to fill in in the first "role" group.  When Matthews or Kadri went down and Nylander/Marleau had to move to C is unsurprisingly when Leivo got into the lineup.  Putting him on the 4th line with Martin when he got in was the mistake- he's not quick enough to generate offense entirely on his own but put him with decent players and I think he'd do well (last year when he was with Kadri he was pretty great). 

From an asset management perspective without a doubt I would have preferred to move one of our UFA wingers for assets.  But given the choice between losing Leivo on waivers for nothing or trading Sosh for a 4th I'd lean heavily to trading Sosh.  From a "who can fill in" in the above roles:

Offensive player:  Kapanen moving up or Leivo slotting in are really the only options in the org. that are ready.
Two-way player/PK:  Johnsson is probably ready.  So if one of Komarov, Hyman, or Kapanen get injured don't be surprised if Johnsson comes up and slots in ahead of Leivo.

Yeah, that's how I'm reading this too.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Two years ago I would have agreed with you.  His skating held him back for a long time but now its at least adequate.  Considering his offensive skills are certainly middle-6 NHL-caliber I think he's actually a really good fit for 3rd line LW (sheltered offensive winger) and net front presence on the PP.  I think he's the most suitable player in the organization to fill JvR's shoes (except for Grundstrom- but he's at least a couple of years away).  He won't score as many goals as JvR but he'd probably give up less the other way too.

JvR actually stands out significantly compared to the other players we slot into the 'net-front' role. His positioning to box out defenders and capitalize on rebounds, and how he handles passes is night and day compared to the likes of Hyman and Leivo. I wish I had access to the video library to demonstrate this. If I were the coaching staff, I'd have JvR coaching Hyman and co on crease top positioning (or at least using his video clips), and vice versa to JvR on Hyman's board work and forecheck.

JvR stands out significantly league wide in that role.  He undoubtedly one of the best net-front PP presences in the league.  I'm not suggesting he's easily replaced in that aspect of his game.  5v5 he's not as valuable.  Leivo has a higher P/60 at 5v5 this year than JvR, despite playing mostly 4th line minutes and starting less than 20% of his shifts in the offensive zone.  Of course there are sample size and luck issues there, but at the expected cost of JvR's next contract I'm saying sayonara and outside of Rick Nash taking a bit of a discount, I'll be happy to slot Leivo into his role and see what he can do.  We probably won't get the same results as JvR on the PP but I'm entirely OK with that.

 

[herman]

Per Pierre LeBrun?s notes, it sounds like the Leafs let Sosh?s agent look for openings and basically let Sosh decide where he wanted to go for his opportunity.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/kristen_shilton/status/964552254933135360

 

[disco]

Per Pierre LeBrun?s notes, it sounds like the Leafs let Sosh?s agent look for openings and basically let Sosh decide where he wanted to go for his opportunity.

Players, agents and other GMs remember that kind of thing. If you're good to folk when you're able to it can come around  for you down the road. Lou's been dealing with GMs from the other conference for a long, long time. There's a reason Marty Brodeur took a haircut for so long in New Jersey. Be competent, surround me with a winner and we can bear fruit together for a decade. Bodes well for negotiations with all our top players.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Soshnikov's possession percentsge was at 47%  Relative goal differential -2.2.

Evaluation of trade: (basically what we already know and then some)...

One big advantage for the Leafs in moving Soshnikov for a pick is that it opens up a roster spot w/r/t the 50 Contract Limit.  The Leafs now have 49 standard player contracts.

Soshnikov was on an entry-level contact, so the savings on this year?s salary cap are negligible. He will be a restricted free-agent, so the Leafs would have to give him a raise in the summer, if they wanted to keep him.

One could argue that trading Komarov would have brought a higher return and opened up a spot for Soshnikov, but Komarov is an elite defensive forward and there is no guarantee that Soshnikov is ever as good as Komarov. He is almost certainly not right now.

A fourth round lottery ticket, one contract slot is a decent return.  It?s not exciting, but since a guy isn?t likely to sign with a team that doesn?t play him anyways, it seems like a good enough return for an expiring asset.


https://editorinleaf.com/2018/02/16/toronto-maple-leafs-soshnikov-trade/

 

[Zee]

Per Pierre LeBrun?s notes, it sounds like the Leafs let Sosh?s agent look for openings and basically let Sosh decide where he wanted to go for his opportunity.

Players, agents and other GMs remember that kind of thing. If you're good to folk when you're able to it can come around  for you down the road. Lou's been dealing with GMs from the other conference for a long, long time. There's a reason Marty Brodeur took a haircut for so long in New Jersey. Be competent, surround me with a winner and we can bear fruit together for a decade. Bodes well for negotiations with all our top players.

For every nice treatment of a player like this you get a Leivo story too. How's Leivo's agent feeling about his client not being allowed to play anywhere?

 

[Al14]

Wow! I had expected a little more than a 4th.

Me too!  Why do our Leafs always get screwed when trading with the Blues?  Why???

 

[sickbeast]

For you guys complaining about this deal, the Leafs had their backs against the wall and were in a roster crunch.  Soshnikov was saying he was going to go back to Russia if the Leafs didn't play him.  In fact I think he was pretty patient and even waited longer than he initially said he would.  The other teams knew the Leafs were in this situation and they acted accordingly.

Is a fourth round draft pick enough of a return for Soshnikov?  Probably not.  Ideally they would have gotten at least a third rounder for him.  But when you look at it from the standpoint that they could have lost him to Russia for nothing, the Leafs came out okay, and they gave the player a nice opportunity in another organization.

I liked the intensity Soshnikov played with, he reminded me a lot of Zach Hyman.  However he was too low on the depth chart and I'm happy we at least got something for him.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Leivo now.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Per Pierre LeBrun?s notes, it sounds like the Leafs let Sosh?s agent look for openings and basically let Sosh decide where he wanted to go for his opportunity.

Players, agents and other GMs remember that kind of thing. If you're good to folk when you're able to it can come around  for you down the road. Lou's been dealing with GMs from the other conference for a long, long time. There's a reason Marty Brodeur took a haircut for so long in New Jersey. Be competent, surround me with a winner and we can bear fruit together for a decade. Bodes well for negotiations with all our top players.

For every nice treatment of a player like this you get a Leivo story too. How's Leivo's agent feeling about his client not being allowed to play anywhere?

Leivo's agent had his client sign a one-way deal with a team that wasn't playing him. There was always a risk of him just sitting, which I assume his agent would have warned him of.

 

[herman]

For you guys complaining about this deal, the Leafs had their backs against the wall and were in a roster crunch.  Soshnikov was saying he was going to go back to Russia if the Leafs didn't play him.  In fact I think he was pretty patient and even waited longer than he initially said he would.  The other teams knew the Leafs were in this situation and they acted accordingly.

Is a fourth round draft pick enough of a return for Soshnikov?  Probably not.  Ideally they would have gotten at least a third rounder for him.  But when you look at it from the standpoint that they could have lost him to Russia for nothing, the Leafs came out okay, and they gave the player a nice opportunity in another organization.

I liked the intensity Soshnikov played with, he reminded me a lot of Zach Hyman.  However he was too low on the depth chart and I'm happy we at least got something for him.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Leivo now.

I actually only remember seeing Sosh say the opposite. Do you have a quote?