Steve Stamkos?

[Tigger]

The Leafs have to get better eventually.

Chicago went: '03-'08 Did not make playoffs - '09 Conference Finals - '10 Stanley Cup.

I'd say signing Stamkos this offseason would be 1 year too soon for the rebuild. I don't think it'd be a deal breaker. I think it would mean 1 season of pain with Stamkos in the lineup. The season after (presumably Nylander's second with the Leafs, perhaps Marner's first) the Leafs should be looking for a deep playoff run.

The Leafs shouldn't want to be bad for too long (to beat a dead horse) and end up like Edmonton.

1 year? how are the Leafs an 08' Hawks team?

A deep playoff run two years from now is way too optimistic.

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I'd say the Leafs will be extremely lucky if they get one Kane or Toews out of those two, it's pretty far from a sure thing. Chicago drafted Skille at 7 overall and Barker at 3 in between Seabrook and Toews, and the same year Chicago drafted Kane at 1, LA drafted Hickey at 4 bookended by Kopitar two years before and Doughty a year after ( winning the cup three years after Doughty, six after Kopitar, seven after Brown ).

 

[Frank E]

LA only drafted top 3 once. The only teams who legitimately "tanked" and had multiple top 3 picks to win the Stanley Cup in the last 10 years were Chicago and Pittsburgh.

The Kings had 3 straight years of top 5 picks and, when they picked Doughty at #2, had a 22 year old elite center on the roster.

Hoping that Nylander is that is one thing.  Making future plans like it's a guarantee is something entirely different.

That elite centre was picked at #11.

And the other 2 guys were Thomas Hickey and Brayden Schenn.

 

[dappleganger]

LA only drafted top 3 once. The only teams who legitimately "tanked" and had multiple top 3 picks to win the Stanley Cup in the last 10 years were Chicago and Pittsburgh.

The Kings had 3 straight years of top 5 picks and, when they picked Doughty at #2, had a 22 year old elite center on the roster.

Hoping that Nylander is that is one thing.  Making future plans like it's a guarantee is something entirely different.

None of this is guaranteed... Only 1 of LA's 3 years of top five picks contributed to their Stanley Cup runs.

 

[TML fan]

I tried.

Well, keep at 'er and you'll be able to contribute to hockey discussions without asking people to pause and explain simple concepts to you in no time.

Well, it usually doesn't take two pages. Most people here aren't too arrogant to admit they can't explain something.

 

[Kin]

And the other 2 guys were Thomas Hickey and Brayden Schenn.

Goodness. One might draw the conclusion that even high draft picks taken by smart front offices don't all pan out and that a team shouldn't base a strategy around that not being a possibility.

 

[dappleganger]

And the other 2 guys were Thomas Hickey and Brayden Schenn.

Goodness. One might draw the conclusion that even high draft picks taken by smart front offices don't all pan out and that a team shouldn't base a strategy around that not being a possibility.

Can the Leafs call Seguin their high pick that didn't pan out?

 

[Frank E]

And the other 2 guys were Thomas Hickey and Brayden Schenn.

Goodness. One might draw the conclusion that even high draft picks taken by smart front offices don't all pan out and that a team shouldn't base a strategy around that not being a possibility.

Right. They should endeavour to acquire talent through other means as well.

 

[TML fan]

Well, it usually doesn't take two pages.

That's because most people here aren't so humble as to admit they don't understand basic tenets of player development.

Maybe they just can't identify when you're full of crap, like now.

 

[Kin]

Right. They should endeavour to acquire talent through other means as well.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't scout hard outside of the top 5 or make trades or even sign free agents when the time is right.

 

[dappleganger]

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I agree that the Leafs still don't have a Keith or a Doughty type d-man and I don't think there's one available in this years draft. Trading for one is next to impossible.

The reality is that there's only a couple Keith and Doughty types in the League. You might not ever get one. What do you do?

 

[TML fan]

Maybe they just can't identify when you're full of crap, like now.

So I should be more like you and make it blindingly obvious?

The difference between you and I is that I don't claim to know everything. So when I say something I say it with the full knowledge that I may not know what I'm talking about. That's why I asked you to explain your position.

I've been on this site for a long time. Long enough to know that you would never miss an opportunity to slap someone down who disagreed with you and to show everyone how much you know and how smart you are, and yet when I asked a very simple question you passed up that opportunity over and over again. That's how I know you're full of it.

And resorting to being this overtly insulting? That's a little low brow for you, isn't it? Must've knocked you off your game more than I thought.

Goodnight.

 

[Tigger]

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I agree that the Leafs still don't have a Keith or a Doughty type d-man and I don't think there's one available in this years draft. Trading for one is next to impossible.

The reality is that there's only a couple Keith and Doughty types in the League. You might not ever get one. What do you do?

Draft hard and keep as much flex with the cap as you can, be ready for timely opportunities.

 

[ZBBM]

Through all the sound and fury in this argument, I still feel it hasn't been fully discussed whether Stamkos is, in fact, among the most elite players worthy of the contract he appears likely to get.

In short: has his game regressed since the leg injury? 

I don't watch him enough to say, but others have expressed doubts.  Wondering what people here say.

 

[TML fan]

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I agree that the Leafs still don't have a Keith or a Doughty type d-man and I don't think there's one available in this years draft. Trading for one is next to impossible.

The reality is that there's only a couple Keith and Doughty types in the League. You might not ever get one. What do you do?

Draft hard and keep as much flex with the cap as you can, be ready for timely opportunities.

Isn't Stamkos a timely opportunity that the Leafs have cap flex for?

 

[Tigger]

Through all the sound and fury in this argument, I still feel it hasn't been fully discussed whether Stamkos is, in fact, among the most elite players worthy of the contract he appears likely to get.

In short: has his game regressed since the leg injury? 

I don't watch him enough to say, but others have expressed doubts.  Wondering what people here say.

To be honest, I don't think it matters at this point. The Leafs won't be winning a cup with Stamkos as the primary guy in the near future, even if he reverts back to a 60 goal player for a few years.

 

[Tigger]

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I agree that the Leafs still don't have a Keith or a Doughty type d-man and I don't think there's one available in this years draft. Trading for one is next to impossible.

The reality is that there's only a couple Keith and Doughty types in the League. You might not ever get one. What do you do?

Draft hard and keep as much flex with the cap as you can, be ready for timely opportunities.

Isn't Stamkos a timely opportunity that the Leafs have cap flex for?

No.

 

[TML fan]

And resorting to being this overtly insulting? That's a little low brow for you, isn't it? Must've knocked you off your game more than I thought.

"I've dragged you down to my level, therefore I've won".

Good god, you're not even clever for a troll.

I never insulted you. Calling you arrogant is an observation of your character.

 

[Tigger]

LA only drafted top 3 once. The only teams who legitimately "tanked" and had multiple top 3 picks to win the Stanley Cup in the last 10 years were Chicago and Pittsburgh.

The Kings had 3 straight years of top 5 picks and, when they picked Doughty at #2, had a 22 year old elite center on the roster.

Hoping that Nylander is that is one thing.  Making future plans like it's a guarantee is something entirely different.

That elite centre was picked at #11.

Just for reference, so was Kyle Beach, by the Hawks in 08, still hasn't played an NHL game.

 

[TML fan]

It's a comparable to the Hawks. If you look at the LA Kings, they have a similar trajectory.

I'm hoping we have a Kane comparable with Marner, and a No. 1 center comparable with Nylander. I don't think Reilly is on the same level as a Keith, but he still can improve. We'll see.

Is a deep playoff run in 2 years too optimistic? Maybe. But you're going to want to go from (hopefully) a Calder Cup in the AHL to having some playoff success in the NHL playoffs. You want the players to keep winning after they make the jump to the NHL. That's why it's great to see the Leafs management keeping the players in the AHL when they could be helping the Leafs right now.

Ok, but even if Marner and Nylander become everything we hope they can, Rielly still isn't Keith, and the Leafs still don't have Seabrook, or even Byfuglien, and the Hawks won the cup two years after they drafted Kane, three after Toews, six after Seabrook and Byfuglien, seven after Keith.

I agree that the Leafs still don't have a Keith or a Doughty type d-man and I don't think there's one available in this years draft. Trading for one is next to impossible.

The reality is that there's only a couple Keith and Doughty types in the League. You might not ever get one. What do you do?

Draft hard and keep as much flex with the cap as you can, be ready for timely opportunities.

Isn't Stamkos a timely opportunity that the Leafs have cap flex for?

No.

But why not? You said yourself that they aren't a Stamkos away from anything, so its not like they won't still be spending time at the bottom. If it's looking like Stamkos won't figure into the long term plans they can always trade him. That's been proven.

 

[TML fan]

I never insulted you. Calling you arrogant is an observation of your character, not an insult.

"You're full of crap"

"No, you are"

"Hey, I never insulted you!"

Seriously, get a new act. You're boring. You're right that I'll engage in a discussion with just about anyone, you should really ask yourself what it says about you that you're the exception.

Saying someone is full of crap is not an insult, and if it is to you then I'm sorry but that says something about you, not me.

I always figured you didn't want to engage in discussion with me because I routinely call you on your BS and you can't handle it.