Tank Nation UNITE!!!

[Kin]

I swear to god, I'm absolutely incredulous that any sane right minded person could be ready to 'take what ever you can get' for Phil Kessel and warning people that 'they're going to have to eat this or accept that'.

Well, ok, but my POV on trading Kessel is that his presence here detracts from their aim, which should be the top of the draft, and that they should "take whatever they can get for him" only in the sense that they shouldn't hold onto him and jeopardize their ability to draft high for the sake of hoping that the market for his talents more accurately reflects what you seem to think his value is around the league.

Right now, the idea that holding onto him is going to increase his value seems pretty tenuous. I think Kessel's a good player and hope that translates into a good return but they shouldn't keep him around out of a stubborn belief that the market is wrong about him.

 

[Bullfrog]

I wouldn't characterize someone who's scored six straight 30 goal seasons (including a projected number in the lockout year) and is barely off that pace in a terrible season as someone who is easily shut down.

No one will defend is physical game down low; it's embarrassing, but that's not how he scores his goals. If he improved that aspect of his game (which is unlikely), I wouldn't be surprised to see him regularly hit 40 goals.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I swear to god, I'm absolutely incredulous that any sane right minded person could be ready to 'take what ever you can get' for Phil Kessel and warning people that 'they're going to have to eat this or accept that'.

Gentlemen, this league is all about scoring, if you have a good team already and have the ability to add 30-50 goals to your lineup, you ask where the seller wants you to back up the dump truck full of cash.

If Kessel gets moved, it will be for a kings ransom or not at all.

Unfortunately, you also have to have the ability to add $8 million to your payroll as well.

 

[cw]

I wouldn't characterize someone who's scored six straight 30 goal seasons (including a projected number in the lockout year) and is barely off that pace in a terrible season as someone who is easily shut down.

No one will defend is physical game down low; it's embarrassing, but that's not how he scores his goals. If he improved that aspect of his game (which is unlikely), I wouldn't be surprised to see him regularly hit 40 goals.

There's zero doubt in my mind he could score 40+

That's part of the frustrating thing about him. This guy could score 50 goals. He's got better skills than Rick Vaive. It's tougher to score now than it was during Vaive's time. But I think he has the physical tools and skills such that with a good #1 center and offensive dman, he could do it. But he has to go to some of the tougher places on the ice to get a few of them and he's got to be willing to fight more puck battles or play some defense to get a few more that way.

The thing that drives me crazy is this kind of attitude something like "I'm not sure I'm in the mood tonight". It must drive his coaches bonkers too.

There's a fair number of parallels one could make between Phil and Guy Lafleur. Neither were keen to play defense. A key difference was Guy got to play with 10 other Hall of Famers and I don't think the Leafs have one on the roster or in their system. So that is a big problem. And I don't recall Guy having a big motivation problem - he was more like Ovechkin - always keen to score.

I think he has enough talent that he could pick this team up and carry it some on his own. But he's not in the mood and that really bugs me. I believe you have to be emotionally hungry to excel at this sport - take one's game to the next level and Phil doesn't seem to have an appetite for that. It's kind of tragic.

 

[Chris]

He'd be at or near the top as a finisher. There's no denying he's an elite finisher. But he is scoring a lot from the periphery/outside.

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

I'm guessing that's where some of his frustration has come from since Horachek took over.  He was his most dangerous when he was flying the zone early, and using his speed to generate scoring chances.  The shift to a possession game, and Horachek's '5 men in one zone' approach doesn't really suit his style very well.  It means he has to battle for pucks, and although he has been involved along the boards a little more, it's really not something he seems to enjoy or excel at.

But Kessel's funk started well before Carlyle was fired. He was on a 1 goal in 10 games (or something like that) drought. And the reason he's even within reach of 30 goals is because he was shooting at 18% (6% above his average) in October and December.

I would guess there is a combination of factors...change in system is playing a role, but there are plenty of times when Kessel gains the zone (sometimes by himself, often with linemates) and is easily diverted to the boards where he fires a hopeless shot toward the net. Maybe some of that is opponents having figured out how to better defend him.

The one thing that stands out though, is the lack of fight, the poor body language on the ice. It's just unacceptable.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I swear to god, I'm absolutely incredulous that any sane right minded person could be ready to 'take what ever you can get' for Phil Kessel and warning people that 'they're going to have to eat this or accept that'.

Well, ok, but my POV on trading Kessel is that his presence here detracts from their aim, which should be the top of the draft, and that they should "take whatever they can get for him" only in the sense that they shouldn't hold onto him and jeopardize their ability to draft high for the sake of hoping that the market for his talents more accurately reflects what you seem to think his value is around the league.

Right now, the idea that holding onto him is going to increase his value seems pretty tenuous. I think Kessel's a good player and hope that translates into a good return but they shouldn't keep him around out of a stubborn belief that the market is wrong about him.

Yeah, that wasn't aimed at you, you're being realistic.

It was those waxing lyrical about how the Leafs are going to and need to take a bath on Kessel for some of the reasons the Toronto media have concocted.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, that wasn't aimed at you, you're being realistic.

It was those waxing lyrical about how the Leafs are going to and need to take a bath on Kessel for some of the reasons the Toronto media have concocted.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either but I do think that realistically the Leafs are selling low and just in my history of being a sports fan when players as good as Kessel get dealt the returns tend to be a little less than people expect. It's an unfair comparison in some respects but in this city especially the Vince Carter trade still speaks pretty loudly and there's more than superficial similarities there.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less? 

Or do his numbers from when he was 21 matter more?  It's such a hilarious misrepresentation to bring up stats from 8 years ago to say he doesn't perform in big situations.

 

[rdowdall]

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less?

1. All
2. Some
3. Most
4. Alot
5. More
6. Maybe

Do I pass?

 

[Tigger]

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less? 

Or do his numbers from when he was 21 matter more?  It's such a hilarious misrepresentation to bring up stats from 8 years ago to say he doesn't perform in big situations.

Pffft, his all star stats say it all....

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less? 

Or do his numbers from when he was 21 matter more?  It's such a hilarious misrepresentation to bring up stats from 8 years ago to say he doesn't perform in big situations.

If I wasn't already married, I'd propose to this post.

 

[pmrules]

I'm a big proponent of trading Kessel.  But the reason for it, is that he will provide the largest return to help the rebuild, not because he's worthless.

 

[Tigger]

I'm a big proponent of trading Kessel.  But the reason for it, is that he will provide the largest return to help the rebuild, not because he's worthless.

Yeah, I'm there. It might be tougher to trade him but they should be able to do a hockey deal.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less? 

Or do his numbers from when he was 21 matter more?  It's such a hilarious misrepresentation to bring up stats from 8 years ago to say he doesn't perform in big situations.

If I wasn't already married, I'd propose to this post.

I was off in the '8 years ago' (it was 6) number so hopefully you have a pre-nup.

 

[ZBBM]

I'm a big proponent of trading Kessel.  But the reason for it, is that he will provide the largest return to help the rebuild, not because he's worthless.

Yeah, I'm there. It might be tougher to trade him but they should be able to do a hockey deal.

And I expect to see that happen over the summer.  Kessel's done in Toronto.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

In his 36 goal season in Boston, 29 or so were against non playoff teams. If you keep him to the outside and play him physically - make him battle for the puck - which he often won't do, he can be shut down fairly easily.

It's a nice skill to have on the roster but in the tougher games, those are the guys who tend to fade first when scoring gets tough.

How many of his 21 points in 22 playoff games were against playoff teams?  How many of his 29 points in 33 senior international competition games were against tough competition?  His 43 in 26 Junior international competitions? (I figure if we're going back 8 years to question his character we might as well go back even further to be just that much more ridiculous)

15 of his goals last season were against playoff teams.  9 of 20 in 2012-13.  18 of 37 in 11-12. Higher if you include teams that just missed out.  How many is high enough?  How many do other scorers get?  Do goals against those teams count less? 

Or do his numbers from when he was 21 matter more?  It's such a hilarious misrepresentation to bring up stats from 8 years ago to say he doesn't perform in big situations.

If I wasn't already married, I'd propose to this post.

I was off in the '8 years ago' (it was 6) number so hopefully you have a pre-nup.

I didn't sign anything. How's your legal representation?

 

[Leaflifer]

The thing that drives me crazy is this kind of attitude something like "I'm not sure I'm in the mood tonight"

I'm not into defending Phil or any Leafs right now, but I think it's hard to say what he means by saying that. I know the players (was it Polak?) felt it was a strange thing to say, but I would guess all he was saying is that he was frustrated and is not getting the bounces.

I wonder how many goals he scored after saying something like that.

Whatever he meant, it's not really a positive thing to say when you're seen as a leader on your team. That much I agree with.

I agree with the rest of your post, and add that Phil wouldn't have as much influence on the younger guys if there are 2 or 3 real leaders on the team.

 

[mr grieves]

I think he has enough talent that he could pick this team up and carry it some on his own. But he's not in the mood and that really bugs me. I believe you have to be emotionally hungry to excel at this sport - take one's game to the next level and Phil doesn't seem to have an appetite for that. It's kind of tragic.

But I think Kessel has picked the Leafs up, and carried it some on his own, plenty of times over his tenure here -- stats cited by others in this thread attest to that. I suppose he doesn't do it as often as one would like, but there was a decent article circulating a few weeks ago (maybe from PPP?) trying to quantify how much better the Leafs best players -- Kessel and Phaneuf -- would have to be to fully carry the rest of this roster. The author guessed at something like generational talent. If you can't win unless your best players are Crosby and Doughty, the biggest problem you've got isn't with the best players.

In the end, I have trouble indicting Kessel for uninspired play since the all star break when the team hasn't played a meaningful game since then. When there are meaningful games to play, I don't find in his efforts or performances wanting.

Sympathy for the millionaire: It must be frustrating for a player when his scoring slump coincides with a precipitous fall in the standings, and, while no one wants to see a professional athlete dispirited by the team around him and mailing in the back end of a season -- that "mood" is offensive when he's making $10m this year -- I can't really fault the guy for being able to do math. I guess I'm just fundamentally more in agreement with Kessel -- more than with those who see him as the problem -- when he defended Phaneuf's treatment in the media saying "Is it his fault we're losing? No. Did he build this team? No."

 

[ZBBM]

Sympathy for the millionaire: It must be frustrating for a player when his scoring slump coincides with a precipitous fall in the standings, and, while no one wants to see a professional athlete dispirited by the team around him and mailing in the back end of a season -- that "mood" is offensive when he's making $10m this year -- I can't really fault the guy for being able to do math.

Wait a minute.  Kessel has mailed it in every game of his career when it comes to playing defense, winning puck battles, backchecking, and all kinds of other things that involve playing without the puck.  I keep hearing about what an elite athlete he is, how he cares so much, etc., but he apparently can't be bothered to put in more than a minimal effort for any part of the game that doesn't involve scoring.

I can rustle up sympathy for any Leaf, no matter how poorly he's playing, if he gives an effort night in and night out.  Komarov is a good example.  Has been pretty much ineffective since Ovie escaped suspension for his dirty hit, but you don't hear complaints about him, nor should you.

Guys who pull down 8+ and don't play hard most of the time?  Sympathy?  Not from me. 

Luckily, I think Shanahan has had enough of his act.

 

[Kin]

Who has seriously suggested that people should show more sympathy to Phil Kessel?