The Brian Burke Thread

[Zee]

Brian Burke needs to be fired immediately.  He has made some good trades like the Phaneuf and Gardiner deals, but he should have done a proper rebuild and the Kessel trade was really, really bad.

His bad moves have far outnumbered his good moves unfortunately.  I was excited when the Leafs signed him, but at this point I'm frustrated and it's obvious that his efforts have been misguided.

I agree with Don Cherry - we need more Ontario born players on the team.

The Kessel trade is not bad.  Kessel is 24 and just cracked 70 points this season, he's been trending upward since we got him.  Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up) and his inability to land a true #1 goalie.

 

[Bullfrog]

I think all of you can agree with me when I say that I am pissed.

You're right. I agree that you are pissed.

 

[Bullfrog]

So?  My point was that plans in any situation are only good if they actually happen and work out.  Also when they don't you can just make up a new plan and still say you have a plan.  All of the worst GMs ever had plans.

You're the last person I'd want as partner entrepreneur.

LOL.  Excuse me for caring about the quality of the plan and not just that they have one like everybody does.

"I have a business plan."
"Is it a good plan?  Have you had to change it time and time again because it keeps blowing up in your face?"
"I don't want to do business with you anymore."
"Good riddance."

You haven't worked much with people who don't have plans, have you?

 

[ontariojames]

Brian Burke needs to be fired immediately.  He has made some good trades like the Phaneuf and Gardiner deals, but he should have done a proper rebuild and the Kessel trade was really, really bad.

His bad moves have far outnumbered his good moves unfortunately.  I was excited when the Leafs signed him, but at this point I'm frustrated and it's obvious that his efforts have been misguided.

I agree with Don Cherry - we need more Ontario born players on the team.

Huh? You think the Phaneuf deal is one of Burke's good trades?

 

[Bullfrog]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

 

[maplesyrup]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

I'm where you are Bullfrog... A lot of what he does excites me. A lot of what he does annoys me. I don't think your captain needs to be your best player either. Phaneuf isn't exactly my favourite player but there is so much wrong with this team right now that exercising much of the frustration on him worse,  the trade that landed him strikes me as well, I don't know... Can't seem to find the word. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

 

[Kin]

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

I think that's sort of selective interpretation of the facts. Stajan was on pace for a 24 goal, 61 point season. Hagman was on pace for a 30 goal, 49 point season, White was on pace for a 13 goal, 38 point season and playing heavy minutes. That's what the trade was at the time.

Since then? Yeah, Stajan and Hagman dropped off. But even then, I really don't think it was the best use of those resources. Really, which of these two packages would you rather have on the team going forward:

Dion Phaneuf
Carter Ashton

or

Whatever Stajan could have fetched in a trade
Whatever Hagman could have fetched in a trade
Whatever Mayers could have fetched in a trade
White
3.625 million in cap space

Even if you're fairly conservative about what those guys could have gone for I think you're still looking at at least a couple of second rounders in the place of Stajan and Hagman and a 5th or so for Mayers.

I don't think it was a landmine of a trade but I think that for a team in the Leafs position, where they had a bunch of decent assets they could have sold off at the deadline for good returns, getting an ok player on a lousy contract doesn't really count as a great trade.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

How impressive is 84 points? Sundin hit more than 83 points once as a Leaf. But don't tell anyone that.

 

[Damian]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

My problem is simple, he'll have 84 points, still be a minus, and have just as many giveaways....

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

My problem is simple, he'll have 84 points, still be a minus, and have just as many giveaways....

He is -4 currently with horrendous goal tending. Awesome Rick Nash is cool -22.

Sundin was -3 in 97/98 when we had awful Potvin in net. Also he was -2 in 06/07 during the Raycroft era. 

 

[Kin]

How impressive is 84 points? Sundin hit more than 83 points once as a Leaf. But don't tell anyone that.

It's impressive. I don't know why we'd bring Sundin into it though. Pre-lockout his scoring was constricted by the clutch and grab era and post lockout, despite being 34-36, his 82 game scoring paces were for 91, 83 and 86 points despite never once having a linemate have as good a season as Lupul.

 

[Andy007]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

How impressive is 84 points? Sundin hit more than 83 points once as a Leaf. But don't tell anyone that.

And during seasons where significantly more goals were being scored.

I didn't quite understand the Kessel knocking his first two seasons; all the criticism this year is downright baffling.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

How impressive is 84 points? Sundin hit more than 83 points once as a Leaf. But don't tell anyone that.

It's impressive. I don't know why we'd bring Sundin into it though. Pre-lockout his scoring was constricted by the clutch and grab era and post lockout, despite being 34-36, his 82 game scoring paces were for 91, 83 and 86 points despite never once having a linemate have as good a season as Lupul.

Except Roberts and Mogilny.

 

[Kin]

Except Roberts and Mogilny.

Well, yes. Except for those two guys who, in Roberts case never even approached a point per game as a Leaf and Mogilny who didn't play on Sundin's wing.

So, you know, good point.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Except Roberts and Mogilny.

Well, yes. Except for those two guys who, in Roberts case never even approached a point per game as a Leaf and Mogilny who didn't play on Sundin's wing.

So, you know, good point.

Yeah Mogilny never played with Sundin on the PP. Never.

And remember the MAD line (or SAD line as some people called it). Yeah. Mogilny and Sundin never played together.

 

[Kin]

Yeah Mogilny never played with Sundin on the PP. Never.

They weren't linemates. I'm sorry reality clashes so violently with whatever bizarre axe you're grinding.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Yeah Mogilny never played with Sundin on the PP. Never.

They weren't linemates. I'm sorry reality clashes so violently with whatever bizarre axe you're grinding.

No, you are just spreading the misconception that Sundin never had a line mate of Joffrey Lupul quality. Lupul, who never had more than 58 pts in his career until this year. Such quality.

 

[Kin]

No, you are just spreading the misconception that Sundin never had a line mate of Joffrey Lupul quality. Lupul, who never had more than 58 pts in his career until this year. Such quality.

Well, what I said is that none of Sundin's linemates ever had a season comparable to the one Lupul had this year. Unfair I know but I only say it because I remain stubbornly tethered to the truth.

edit: Although, I mean, to highlight the absurdity of the situation 58 points would have been a great total for one of Sundin's linemates in most years.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Steve Thomas?  I don't remember if he played on a line with Sundin (I should also point out that I don't care if Sundin did or did not have a linemate who had a season as good as Lupul...but now I want to know for sure out of curiosity).