The Brian Burke Thread

[losveratos]

During the 2001-2002 season, The Toronto Maple Leafs had a line of Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts, and Mats Sundin. This was their best line since the expansion for sure. Mogilny was one of the most talented Russian born players to play in the NHL. Gary Roberts was as dominate against the boards as any other player was, and Mats Sundin is arguably one of the greatest skilled Swedish forwards to ever play the game. This line led The Toronto Maple leafs to, at the time, their highest regular season points totals in franchise history, that earned them 3rd overall in the NHL standings.

In the playoffs, Gary Roberts and Alexander Mogilny continued their success with adopted line mate Alyn McCauley when Mats Sundin went down with an upper body Injury. This line took them to the Eastern Conference finals, where they were beaten by the Cinderella team, The Carolina Hurricanes in 6 games.

I got that from this site

http://www.mahalo.com/toronto-maple-leafs-roster/

Don't know if it's 100% accurate.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I remember Hoglund-Sundin-Renberg and Roberts-Reichel-Mogilny.

For some reason my brain remembers Mogs and Mats spending time killing penalties together but not lined up at even strength very often.

Both of those things are correct.

That's how I remember it too. The MAD line started a season together and had some nice instant results, but it become clear that they were brutal defensively and had to be broken up after about 10 games.

 

[Madferret]

I remember Hoglund-Sundin-Renberg and Roberts-Reichel-Mogilny.

I also remember MAD- Mats, Alex, Darcy.  That was the start of year 2... I believe we beat Pittsburgh opening night 6-0 was it?  Thats when the MAD line started.

Those were good times.

Oh God, oh God no....nooooooooo

 

[Bullfrog]

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

I think that's sort of selective interpretation of the facts. Stajan was on pace for a 24 goal, 61 point season. Hagman was on pace for a 30 goal, 49 point season, White was on pace for a 13 goal, 38 point season and playing heavy minutes. That's what the trade was at the time.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say facts. Are you just referring to their points? I know many people here shared my opinion on what Stajan was going to amount to. Not many that I recall thought he was a big loss and most (again this my just be my selective interpretation/recollection) attributed Stajan's higher point totals to the fact he was getting prime playing time that he wouldn't normally get if the team had better options at center. Hagman's drop off was surprising, but I don't think many some him as more than a decent complementary player.

At the time of the trade, we were also told that Aulie might end up being the best player in the deal. So the perception was there that we were getting quality back.

 

[Kin]

That's how I remember it too. The MAD line started a season together and had some nice instant results, but it become clear that they were brutal defensively and had to be broken up after about 10 games.

Yeah. That more or less jives with what I remember. I want to say that Mats saw a decent amount of time with Antro that year too which is part of the reason why Antro had his first really solid season but I may be crossing my wires there.

Of course that's not from Mahalo.com so take it for what it's worth.

 

[Kin]

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say facts. Are you just referring to their points? I know many people here shared my opinion on what Stajan was going to amount to. Not many that I recall thought he was a big loss and most (again this my just be my selective interpretation/recollection) attributed Stajan's higher point totals to the fact he was getting prime playing time that he wouldn't normally get if the team had better options at center. Hagman's drop off was surprising, but I don't think many some him as more than a decent complementary player.

I just think that it's unfair to say neither guy was doing anything. Both guys were in the midst of solid seasons and I think Tyler Bozak is a perfect example of how Stajan's numbers couldn't just be the result of being a #1 centre undeservedly(he still doesn't project to score as much as Stajan did that year despite playing on a much better line).

At the time of the trade, we were also told that Aulie might end up being the best player in the deal. So the perception was there that we were getting quality back.

Alright, but I remember distinctively that Bob McKenzie said that the guy who was playing the best at the time of the trade of anyone involved was White. I think that's kind of played out.

So if we're looking at it in hindsight I still think it has to be seen in the sense of whether or not the Leafs made the most of the assets they had.

 

[Zee]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

Yes but they still need a center for him, an actual stud.  I can't imagine Lupul repeating a career year again.  The point is Kessel needs someone else on the line to help him out.  If Lupul doesn't play up to the same ability next season, Kessel doesn't get close to 80 points.

 

[hockeyfan1]

That's how I remember it too. The MAD line started a season together and had some nice instant results, but it become clear that they were brutal defensively and had to be broken up after about 10 games.

Yeah. That more or less jives with what I remember. I want to say that Mats saw a decent amount of time with Antro that year too which is part of the reason why Antro had his first really solid season but I may be crossing my wires there.

Of course that's not from Mahalo.com so take it for what it's worth

Antropov played on a line with Sundin and Ponikarovsky in the 2006-07 season, appearing in only 54 games due to injury.  He amassed 33 points that year (18g/15assts).

He had arguably his best year as a Leaf in 2007-08, playing in 72 games, 56 points (26gls/30assts).  His third best year was in 2002-03, in 72 games, posting 45 points (16gls/29assts).


Source:. Wikipedia

 

[ontariojames]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

 

[jonlleafs]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

Yes but they still need a center for him, an actual stud.  I can't imagine Lupul repeating a career year again.  The point is Kessel needs someone else on the line to help him out.  If Lupul doesn't play up to the same ability next season, Kessel doesn't get close to 80 points.

Why can't you imagine Lupul repeating this year?  From what I can see of him and his skillset, he has all of the tools one would need to be a top scorer/point producer in this league.  Unless his injury hampers him from returning to 100%, then ya that's a different story.  Lupul's got the speed, the shot, and the moves to continue to produce like he was.  To me, I think Lupul is a better player than Phil because Lupul plays hard and goes hard into corners whereas Phil is too soft and doesn't like to get hit and doesn't hit back to get the puck.  Phil could be a 100pt guy if he could learn to be more aggressive.  Too many times he seems to just loaf back or doesn't charge after the puck like Lupul or Grabovski does. 

 

[Zee]

Burke's failure comes from not being able to land a #1 center for Kessel to take his game even higher (80 points and up)

Kessel is on pace for 84 points this season.

Yes but they still need a center for him, an actual stud.  I can't imagine Lupul repeating a career year again.  The point is Kessel needs someone else on the line to help him out.  If Lupul doesn't play up to the same ability next season, Kessel doesn't get close to 80 points.

Why can't you imagine Lupul repeating this year?  From what I can see of him and his skillset, he has all of the tools one would need to be a top scorer/point producer in this league.  Unless his injury hampers him from returning to 100%, then ya that's a different story.  Lupul's got the speed, the shot, and the moves to continue to produce like he was.  To me, I think Lupul is a better player than Phil because Lupul plays hard and goes hard into corners whereas Phil is too soft and doesn't like to get hit and doesn't hit back to get the puck.  Phil could be a 100pt guy if he could learn to be more aggressive.  Too many times he seems to just loaf back or doesn't charge after the puck like Lupul or Grabovski does.

Lupul's going to be 29 before next season starts and he was never a point a game player before this year.  Whether that's due to injuries or something else (maybe playing with Kessel) I suppose remains to be seen.  Kessel suddenly becoming a point a game player is part of his maturation process.  He should be improving at his age and we probably won't see him at his peak until 28-29.  So while I say I can't see Lupul repeating his year, I think it might be unlikely to expect him to.  Would be nice if he proves me wrong.

 

[lamajama]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say facts. Are you just referring to their points? I know many people here shared my opinion on what Stajan was going to amount to. Not many that I recall thought he was a big loss and most (again this my just be my selective interpretation/recollection) attributed Stajan's higher point totals to the fact he was getting prime playing time that he wouldn't normally get if the team had better options at center. Hagman's drop off was surprising, but I don't think many some him as more than a decent complementary player.

I just think that it's unfair to say neither guy was doing anything. Both guys were in the midst of solid seasons and I think Tyler Bozak is a perfect example of how Stajan's numbers couldn't just be the result of being a #1 centre undeservedly(he still doesn't project to score as much as Stajan did that year despite playing on a much better line).

At the time of the trade, we were also told that Aulie might end up being the best player in the deal. So the perception was there that we were getting quality back.

Alright, but I remember distinctively that Bob McKenzie said that the guy who was playing the best at the time of the trade of anyone involved was White. I think that's kind of played out.

So if we're looking at it in hindsight I still think it has to be seen in the sense of whether or not the Leafs made the most of the assets they had.

Your memory regarding Ian White is accurate: that is indeed what Bob M said. If Calgary had held on to White, that trade would be viewed as a more even swap and likely one that Calgary won.

 

[jonlleafs]

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say facts. Are you just referring to their points? I know many people here shared my opinion on what Stajan was going to amount to. Not many that I recall thought he was a big loss and most (again this my just be my selective interpretation/recollection) attributed Stajan's higher point totals to the fact he was getting prime playing time that he wouldn't normally get if the team had better options at center. Hagman's drop off was surprising, but I don't think many some him as more than a decent complementary player.

I just think that it's unfair to say neither guy was doing anything. Both guys were in the midst of solid seasons and I think Tyler Bozak is a perfect example of how Stajan's numbers couldn't just be the result of being a #1 centre undeservedly(he still doesn't project to score as much as Stajan did that year despite playing on a much better line).

At the time of the trade, we were also told that Aulie might end up being the best player in the deal. So the perception was there that we were getting quality back.

Alright, but I remember distinctively that Bob McKenzie said that the guy who was playing the best at the time of the trade of anyone involved was White. I think that's kind of played out.

So if we're looking at it in hindsight I still think it has to be seen in the sense of whether or not the Leafs made the most of the assets they had.

Your memory regarding Ian White is accurate: that is indeed what Bob M said. If Calgary had held on to White, that trade would be viewed as a more even swap and likely one that Calgary won.

I don't see it like that.  I think

Phanuef + Ashton > White + crap

 

[KW Sluggo]

Potvin 29's comment regarding Burke's failure is alittle too narrow for my liking.

We were promised:

truculence etc - Failed completely, Burke's team "runs" no one.

contender in less than 5 years - Failed absolutely, we are not even respectable and no playoffs is a hallmark

top priority is a 1st line centre - Failed failed failed

rebuilt the farm teams - Failed, it is improved but the Marlies do not have a 20 goal scorer

talent assessment - Failed absolutely, see: anything to do with Ron Wilson such as retaining him for this season, extending Wilson's contract, firing Wilson only after it was too late and, of course, crownuing wilson as the Leaf MVP in early December.

But wait, I'm not done... speaking of talent assessment, we have more 3rd liners than any two other teams in the NHL combined but we overpay royally for the whole damn lot.

Yet, at the trade deadline we did dick.

Then Burke mused about adding another Burke No Trade Zone 10 days before the rest of the league has its deadline.

UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE!

Steve Simmons on-line column today pretty much sums up the success of the Burke administration.

Not one single lousy playoff game! NOT ONE!

We are as bad now (if not worse) as we were when Burke started.

Any other team would have canned this guy's keester a year ago.

 

[ontariojames]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

Depends if Burke is still around, if he is I don't see him signing Phaneuf for a lot lower than he brought him in for because of Burke's ego.

 

[jonlleafs]

Potvin 29's comment regarding Burke's failure is alittle too narrow for my liking.

We were promised:

truculence etc - Failed completely, Burke's team "runs" no one.

contender in less than 5 years - Failed absolutely, we are not even respectable and no playoffs is a hallmark

top priority is a 1st line centre - Failed failed failed

rebuilt the farm teams - Failed, it is improved but the Marlies do not have a 20 goal scorer

talent assessment - Failed absolutely, see: anything to do with Ron Wilson such as retaining him for this season, extending Wilson's contract, firing Wilson only after it was too late and, of course, crownuing wilson as the Leaf MVP in early December.

But wait, I'm not done... speaking of talent assessment, we have more 3rd liners than any two other teams in the NHL combined but we overpay royally for the whole damn lot.

Yet, at the trade deadline we did dick.

Then Burke mused about adding another Burke No Trade Zone 10 days before the rest of the league has its deadline.

UNFREAKINGBELIEVABLE!

Steve Simmons on-line column today pretty much sums up the success of the Burke administration.

Not one single lousy playoff game! NOT ONE!

We are as bad now (if not worse) as we were when Burke started.

Any other team would have canned this guy's keester a year ago.

The problem with the trade deadline is that management needs to keep their big trap closed.  Complete silence or the obligatory "We don't comment about potential transactions" would have done wonders for the psyche of the dressing room.  Spewing all this crap about looking at goaltending and possibly adding up front definitely hurt the mental part of the team making them play tighter and trying to force things to happen.  Then it just snowballed from there with loss after loss.

The best thing management could have said was "we believe in this group and feel we have a group that could do damage in the playoffs".  Then, if you trade for someone, it doesn't matter.  You're adding to the talent of the group.  You can explain it away later if you think you have to.  But really, the GM and management need not answer to anyone except the owners and the fans.

 

[Bender]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

Depends if Burke is still around, if he is I don't see him signing Phaneuf for a lot lower than he brought him in for because of Burke's ego.

Or, you know, that's the going rate to retain their services. Liles has a lower cap hit going forward than when we brough him IIRC.

 

[pnjunction]

The problem with the trade deadline is that management needs to keep their big trap closed.  Complete silence or the obligatory "We don't comment about potential transactions" would have done wonders for the psyche of the dressing room.  Spewing all this crap ...

Yep.  It was just another hilarious foot-in-the-mouth hypocrite Burke moment: He fed so many of the rumours, and even generated ones from scratch (the 4 1st rounders offered and solid offer for Reimer crap), then had the gall to turn around and do all the whining that he did while they were free-falling towards the deadline.

If the stakes weren't so high, and he didn't get so mad when called on it, I'd say he was trolling us.

 

[ontariojames]

oj, this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone shares your opinion that Phaneuf is the worst defenseman in the NHL.

I like the trade. He brought in a good offensive defensman (currently 11th in the league in scoring for D) and a good prospect (Aulie.) Concurrently, he got rid of two players who weren't going to amount to much and weren't doing much (Hagman and Stajan). Giving up White was the tough part, but something of quality had to go back.

When have I ever said I think Dion is a bad Dman? I would like having Dion on this team if he wasn't getting paid anymore than 4 mil a year. He's a 45-50 point Dman who is just average or a bit above average in his own end. He's nowhere near worth 6.5 mil and at the time it added another greatly overpaid under performing Dman to a D group that was already greatly overpaid and underperforming with the additions of Beauch and Komi.

Out of curiosity, what can you see Phaneuf getting in his next deal? I agree he's around $4 to $4.5 (allowing for usual GM insanity). I can almost guarantee he'll be in the high 5.5+ range if he stays with the Leafs which he probably will as they'll pay him the most.

Depends if Burke is still around, if he is I don't see him signing Phaneuf for a lot lower than he brought him in for because of Burke's ego.

Or, you know, that's the going rate to retain their services. Liles has a lower cap hit going forward than when we brough him IIRC.

You can't compare Liles and Phaneuf, Phaneuf was a huge deal for Burke and was made captain right away.