The Brian Burke Thread

[maplesyrup]

I get it from a standpoint, but what does it really leave the Leafs with?

Like I said, in my mind, a better overall player with longer term.

 

[Champ Kind]

I don't see it.  The Strombo thing was almost a full 2 months ago.  He talked about all sorts of things, and he's done that all year (ex. role of enforcers).

And I'm sure he's like anyone else, you're in a better mood to talk to someone when things are going well.

I just don't buy the whole - Burke talks too much it's embarrassing!  Why isn't he talking anymore? It's embarrassing.

I agree.  Look, the season fell apart like no other I can remember (although the Boston Red Sox collapse late last year probably trumps what's happened to the Leafs).  Does anyone think Burke is happy about that?  What is he supposed to say or do?  What can he say or do?

 

[pnjunction]

The terrible job he has done is what is embarrassing. Burke is definitely a fair weather media junky, but I don't care anymore at this point.  What can he say or do?  Nothing,  not sure about you guys but I have heard enough.

Can anyone tell me why they shouldn't fire him and appoint Nonis the day after the last game is played?  The only reasons I can think of are that Nonis would somehow be worse, or that he doesn't even want the job.  Anyone actually have confidence that Burke can turn this around?  Why?  Myself I am afraid of what desperation move he will pull this summer.

Edit: I guess there is the whole change of ownership thing.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Where the hell is Burke anyways?  I notice his public speaking appearances and radio shows have dried up since he hung up on that radio host a few weeks back.  I suppose we'll have to wait until his end-of-year April press conference when he tells us how angry he is about missing the playoffs again?

"All this talk from people about the playoffs. Well, July 1st is our playoffs"

Well, that's the measure of a blowhard: where is he when things go terribly wrong?

And yet on the radio this morning I heard on multiple occasions from multiple media figures that for now Burke should just shut up and face the media after the season is over, as he seems to be doing.

 

[Erndog]

I read a great post somewhere that said what's basically happened is we all drank the kool aid.

We don't sign players for more than 5 years and we always expect them to come on our terms.  Well thats why we don't have a Gaborik, or a Kovalchuk or a Carter, or a Brad Richards and we won't have a Ryan Suter, or Zach Parise, etc.  Because we've all bought in from Burke that anything over 5 years is bad.  Anything front loaded is circumventing the cap.  We are a rich team, you know what they do?  They can buy out, demote, whatever a player.

The Blackhawks didn't want to pay Huets $5M+ so he was basically shipped him off to Europe.  The Rangers threw Redden into the abyss.  The Devils initially had Malakhov experience a 'career threatening injury.;  There are ways around it.  Yet we continously sit back and say, "here marque player, come play for us... here's a 5 year, $6M per offer... we know you are getting 7-8-9 year offers at $7M+ but we're the Leafs!"


We've all bought the kool aid.  The 10 day earlier Christmas freeze, the 5 year contract, the "we don't want to trade any of our youth", the crappy free agent signings.

We don't make any trades unless we take back salary.  Giguere, Phaneuf, Lupul, Lombardi... all these trades we had to take back significant risk and/or salary.  Nobody wants our garbage outright.

It's tiring.  I've really sat back and watched this unfold without my blue glasses and it's easy to see this franchise is still a mess top to bottom. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

That's ridiculous, there's been criticism all over the internet of Burke, here included, from pretty much day 1.

 

[ZBBM]

I am beginning to think that Burke may be in real trouble.  If they keep getting embarrassed in the few remaining home games, there's going to be real levels of corporate concern in MLSE if there isn't already.  The media harping on empty seats, fans with bags on their heads, booing the team off the ice -- all that hits MLSE right in the brand, where it hurts most.

 

[maplesyrup]

Let's say Burke gets fired (and I think it's a 50/50 proposition) is it a problem that Carlyle is now in place for 3 more years? GMs normally like to have their guy.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I am beginning to think that Burke may be in real trouble.  If they keep getting embarrassed in the few remaining home games, there's going to be real levels of corporate concern in MLSE if there isn't already.  The media harping on empty seats, fans with bags on their heads, booing the team off the ice -- all that hits MLSE right in the brand, where it hurts most.

Don't the fans want a high draft pick?

 

[Erndog]

That's ridiculous, there's been criticism all over the internet of Burke, here included, from pretty much day 1.

Exactly, and that's another thing.

We don't have a player, coach, GM, anything that has been pretty much full embraced by Leaf fans and/or Leaf haters.  That's telling.

Sundin, although it took time, became universally embraced by Leaf fans (you're always, no matter what, going to have the odd detractor).  Other teams respected him, the media, fans, GM's, etc, all wrapped their arms around the guy.

Here?  Phaneuf, our captain, is critized left right and center.  Kessel, our best player, is seen as a soft, perimiter player by many, and the trade is going to follow him his entire career.  I feel for the guy, he's basically living in the shadow of a kid younger than him and not as good but it's been seen as a terrible deal by so many.

Our GM is pretty much hated by any non-Leaf fan. 

We don't have that any 1 guy that's universally embraced.  We can't hang our hats on anyone.  That's a telling state of where the franchise is currently at.

 

[Champ Kind]

Let's say Burke gets fired (and I think it's a 50/50 proposition) is it a problem that Carlyle is now in place for 3 more years? GMs normally like to have their guy.

Burke probably deserves to be fired, if I'm being honest.  I happen to like the guy and, despite a fanbase that is obviously frustrated and downhearted, can see that the organization is in better shape than they were four years ago.  I don't think it's fair or accurate to suggest the organization hasn't progressed.

But, like I said, given what Tallon has done in Florida, what someone like Holmgren did last summer in Philadelphia, and how someone like Lamorello has reinvented the Devils, I think the last 3.5 years have been a failure for Burke here in Toronto.  I'm not sure I have the confidence in him to suggest he's able to make the changes that are required.

 

[Peter D.]

Here's a thread I started just after the new year:

http://tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=582.0

Received minimal replies, a couple of which mocked my grammatical error, but I would have to assume many agree with the premise considering what's been going on on these boards the last few weeks.

 

[ZBBM]

Let's say Burke gets fired (and I think it's a 50/50 proposition) is it a problem that Carlyle is now in place for 3 more years? GMs normally like to have their guy.

Yes it is, unless, perhaps, they just replace him with Nonis.  Which I wouldn't do myself, simply because Nonis has a vested interest in the decisions that have been made.

They need a clean break.  If they do that, any way you cut it will cost MLSE a lot of dough: Burke's contract, Wilson's contract, Carlyle contract.  Several million $ right there, plus perhaps buyouts etc.

But all that might add up to $10M, say?  What's the cost of the damage currently being done to a brand that is probably worth closer to a billion?  In that light, the cost is almost minuscule.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

That's ridiculous, there's been criticism all over the internet of Burke, here included, from pretty much day 1.

Exactly, and that's another thing.

We don't have a player, coach, GM, anything that has been pretty much full embraced by Leaf fans and/or Leaf haters.  That's telling.

Sundin, although it took time, became universally embraced by Leaf fans (you're always, no matter what, going to have the odd detractor).  Other teams respected him, the media, fans, GM's, etc, all wrapped their arms around the guy.

Here?  Phaneuf, our captain, is critized left right and center.  Kessel, our best player, is seen as a soft, perimiter player by many, and the trade is going to follow him his entire career.  I feel for the guy, he's basically living in the shadow of a kid younger than him and not as good but it's been seen as a terrible deal by so many.

Our GM is pretty much hated by any non-Leaf fan. 

We don't have that any 1 guy that's universally embraced.  We can't hang our hats on anyone.  That's a telling state of where the franchise is currently at.

So, people hate the Leafs, and Leafs fans can't agree on whether players are good or suck.

This is different than any other year I've ever been a Leafs fan how?  ;D

 

[Erndog]

That's ridiculous, there's been criticism all over the internet of Burke, here included, from pretty much day 1.

Exactly, and that's another thing.

We don't have a player, coach, GM, anything that has been pretty much full embraced by Leaf fans and/or Leaf haters.  That's telling.

Sundin, although it took time, became universally embraced by Leaf fans (you're always, no matter what, going to have the odd detractor).  Other teams respected him, the media, fans, GM's, etc, all wrapped their arms around the guy.

Here?  Phaneuf, our captain, is critized left right and center.  Kessel, our best player, is seen as a soft, perimiter player by many, and the trade is going to follow him his entire career.  I feel for the guy, he's basically living in the shadow of a kid younger than him and not as good but it's been seen as a terrible deal by so many.

Our GM is pretty much hated by any non-Leaf fan. 

We don't have that any 1 guy that's universally embraced.  We can't hang our hats on anyone.  That's a telling state of where the franchise is currently at.

So, people hate the Leafs, and Leafs fans can't agree on whether players are good or suck.

This is different than any other year I've ever been a Leafs fan how?  ;D

I guess that's fair.

But it was Garrey Galley who brought it up.

He said just looking at the top 10 scorers (he arbitraily picked that number).... every single one of those guys is embraced, respected, well loved by their teams' fans, other teams, etc.  There is no debating them really.  Their teams wouldn't even consider trading them.  Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, etc....

Then he said look at Toronto.  They have the 5th leading producer and really, the guy is more criticized than all the other 9 combined.  Many of their own fans dislike him, he's seen as 1 dimensional, he gets flak everywhere he turns, and truth be told, fans/media talk about trading him, etc.  We haven't wrapped our arms around the guy.

He compared it to the 80's team and Rick Vaive... yeah he had some good years but really, at the end of the day, who cares?  NOBODY talks about him now like they do in the same breath as a Gilmour, or Clark, or Salming, or Sittler, or Sundin, etc.

It's just where we currently are as a franchise.  Basically hoping complimentary players are "franchise" players and really, they aren't.

 

[Tigger]

I get it from a standpoint, but what does it really leave the Leafs with?

Like I said, in my mind, a better overall player with longer term.

Just so I have you right, you're advocating trading a lottery pick and Kessel ( +? ) for Nash?

 

[maplesyrup]

I get it from a standpoint, but what does it really leave the Leafs with?

Like I said, in my mind, a better overall player with longer term.

Just so I have you right, you're advocating trading a lottery pick and Kessel ( +? ) for Nash?

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

 

[ZBBM]

I get it from a standpoint, but what does it really leave the Leafs with?

Like I said, in my mind, a better overall player with longer term.

Just so I have you right, you're advocating trading a lottery pick and Kessel ( +? ) for Nash?

In principle, just Kessel + the pick (post lottery.) If it's 4/5 down... Yes. Maybe it would need to be massaged a bit but yes, I'd deal those two assets for Nash.

Me too.  That's a framework I could go for.

 

[McPwnage]

Am I the only one that thinks Kessel is actually a better player than the extremely overrated Nash and there is not enough of a difference to advocate giving up our top pick for him . 

 

[Peter D.]

I'd feel really weary if that type of deal is what Burke pulls off.  All the assets expended on Kessel, only to flip him along with another potential top 5 pick for Nash just has disaster written all over it for me.