The Brian Burke Thread

[L K]

It takes some exceptional luck (see: Pens as opposed to CBJ) but realistically the only way to get franchise players is to draft them.

In the span of about 20 years they were able to have a #1 overall pick to draft not just an excellent player, but a generational talent (Lemieux and Crosby) twice. 

Not that a big staff automatically equals a good staff, but there is no reason for the Leafs not to do a better job to draft and develop talent than Columbus (with similar draft position).  More scouts see a greater variety of players (or see them more often).  Better training facilities, better training staff, better access to new training technologies, etc.  There really isn't an excuse with similar drafting to not do better.  Obviously a good treadmill/bike system doesn't turn Daigle into a HOF player with drive and desire, but I think it should turn a net positive over the long-run.

 

[ZBBM]

It takes some exceptional luck (see: Pens as opposed to CBJ) but realistically the only way to get franchise players is to draft them.

In the span of about 20 years they were able to have a #1 overall pick to draft not just an excellent player, but a generational talent (Lemieux and Crosby) twice. 

Exactly my thought the other day.  Unbelievably lucky. 

And Nik, I pretty much agree with your comment but the point is that CBJ didn't luck into having the #1 pick during one of the exceedingly rare years when a generational talent was available -- not once but twice.  I doubt even MacLean (or insert donkey of your choice: Milbury, JFJ, whoever) would have passed over Crosby or Lemieux.

Where the Pens do deserve big credit for non-donkeyality is in drafting somebody like Fleury, which was a fair gamble.  He's turned into a #1-pickworthy goaltender.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It takes some exceptional luck (see: Pens as opposed to CBJ) but realistically the only way to get franchise players is to draft them.

In the span of about 20 years they were able to have a #1 overall pick to draft not just an excellent player, but a generational talent (Lemieux and Crosby) twice. 

Exactly my thought the other day.  Unbelievably lucky. 

And Nik, I pretty much agree with your comment but the point is that CBJ didn't luck into having the #1 pick during one of the exceedingly rare years when a generational talent was available -- not once but twice.  I doubt even MacLean (or insert donkey of your choice: Milbury, JFJ, whoever) would have passed over Crosby or Lemieux.

Where the Pens do deserve big credit for non-donkeyality is in drafting somebody like Fleury, which was a fair gamble.  He's turned into a #1-pickworthy goaltender.

Yeah, I should add that I think Pittsburgh drafted exceptionally well overall, not trying to belittle their drafts.  Just a comment about how they got both those talents.

 

[Erndog]

It takes some exceptional luck (see: Pens as opposed to CBJ) but realistically the only way to get franchise players is to draft them.

In the span of about 20 years they were able to have a #1 overall pick to draft not just an excellent player, but a generational talent (Lemieux and Crosby) twice. 

Exactly my thought the other day.  Unbelievably lucky. 

And Nik, I pretty much agree with your comment but the point is that CBJ didn't luck into having the #1 pick during one of the exceedingly rare years when a generational talent was available -- not once but twice.  I doubt even MacLean (or insert donkey of your choice: Milbury, JFJ, whoever) would have passed over Crosby or Lemieux.

Where the Pens do deserve big credit for non-donkeyality is in drafting somebody like Fleury, which was a fair gamble.  He's turned into a #1-pickworthy goaltender.

Yeah, I should add that I think Pittsburgh drafted exceptionally well overall, not trying to belittle their drafts.  Just a comment about how they got both those talents.

They also drafted a Norris caliber D-man in the 3rd round (Letang).

Some teams have all the luck.

 

[Kin]

And Nik, I pretty much agree with your comment but the point is that CBJ didn't luck into having the #1 pick during one of the exceedingly rare years when a generational talent was available -- not once but twice.  I doubt even MacLean (or insert donkey of your choice: Milbury, JFJ, whoever) would have passed over Crosby or Lemieux.

I think, though, that it's overstated slightly. I think if you drafted where Pittsburgh  drafted in any stretch in NHL history you're going to wind up with terrific players.

Just as an example, if they'd drafted 1, 2, 1, 2 the way they did from 03-06 in the last four years they wouldn't have drafted Crosby or Lemieux but they'd have drafted Stamkos, Hall, Landeskog and Hedman.

 

[cw]

Agree, jury still out on Kadrie, but you can't tell me Schenn is NOT a bust at +$4m per year.  Let's not kid ourselves, this guy is no top 5 defensiveman, on any team.  Turn him into a 4th line forward grinder and try to recover some of your investment but in the meantime, the coaches are doing the right thing by reducing his ice time and minimizing the number of bone head plays this defensive core is famous for.

I think that is way, way premature.

Here's the top 15 Norris voted dmen in 2011 and what they did at age 22:
1. Nicklas Lidstrom - 2nd full season in NHL, 6th +7 for dmen, don't know in TOI/g that year
2. Shea Weber - 2nd full season in NHL, team worst -6 for dmen, 4th in TOI/g for dmen
3. Zdeno Chara - 2nd full season in NHL, team worst -27 for dmen, 2nd in TOI/g for dmen
4. Lubomir Visnovsky - Not in NHL
5. Keith Yandle - 1st full season in NHL, 4th with -4 in +/- for dmen, 6th in TOI/g for dmen
6. Kris Letang - 2nd full season in NHL, 5th with +1 in +/- for dmen, 3rd in TOI/g for dmen
7. Dustin Byfuglien - 1st full season in NHL, 7th with -7 in +/- for dmen, 6th in TOI/g for dmen
8. Christian Ehrhoff - Not in NHL full time
9. Duncan Keith - 1st full season in NHL, 5th with -11 in +/- for dmen, 1st in TOI/g for dmen
10. Matt Carle - 1st full season in NHL, 3rd with +9 in +/- for dmen, 6th in TOI/g for dmen
11. Drew Doughty - 4th full season in NHL, 4th with +0 in +/- for dmen, 1st in TOI/g for dmen
12. Chris Pronger - 4th NHL season - doing very well
13. Toni Lydman - Not in NHL
14. Dan Boyle - Not in NHL full time
15. Ryan Suter - 2nd full season in NHL, 4th with +10 in +/- for dmen, 3rd in TOI/g for dmen

A bunch of the best dmen were not blowing away the league at age 22. Some had team worst +/-s and low ice time while others were not even in the league yet.

Development of young dmen takes time. 22 is way too young to give up on a young dman and claim he's a bust. Schenn was NEVER going to be an offensive star.  It takes time to learn the defensive side of the game.

I think this business about declaring Schenn a bust is over the top at this juncture. At 24-25, with the same result, then it's more of a legit concern.

His pay isn't his fault. It's the fault of the GM who brought him up at 18 yrs old when he had little chance of being decent for a number of years. He could be in the 2nd year of his entry deal right now if they'd sat on him for a couple of years (like Detroit tends to do smartly with their young players). It's when a dman hits 24-25 that he tends to become really useful in this league - on rough average. By bringing him in at 18, Luke was headed for UFA status at 25 and he's yet to play well at 22 - after four years.

 

[Deebo]

His pay isn't his fault. It's the fault of the GM who brought him up at 18 yrs old when he had little chance of being decent for a number of years. He could be in the 2nd year of his entry deal right now if they'd sat on him for a couple of years (like Detroit tends to do smartly with their young players). It's when a dman hits 24-25 that he tends to become really useful in this league - on rough average. By bringing him in at 18, Luke was headed for UFA status at 25 and he's yet to play well at 22 - after four years.

For the record, that was Fletcher.

 

[avatarx51]

The leafs look as they did before Burke took over 4-5 years ago with no results its almost a miracle this clown is allowed to keep yapping about how great his team is.

 

[lamajama]

The leafs look as they did before Burke took over 4-5 years ago with no results its almost a miracle this clown is allowed to keep yapping about how great his team is.

Well he finally quit yapping the last few days eh? I'm  not surprised he's disappeared (at least from the media I read) after 8-0 and 5-2.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Ooh la la!...

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/article/1150154--maple-leaf-gm-brian-burke-s-head-

 

[ontariojames]

Draft schmaft... I want a franchise player. We haven't had one since Sundin. If there isn't a franchise player available in the draft, I easily deal the pick if it means getting the player I want.

Is Nash that player?  I agree with you that Nash > Kessel, but in no way, shape, or form is Nash > Kessel + Top 5 pick.

Yes. I truly believe Nash is a franchise player. I think folks are being too fussy on the actual draft slot. I'm not saying this is the case but if it were deemed that the only true franchise player was gone at #1, then I'd even consider moving the #2 pick. Also, if the draft were 5 franchise players deep then obviously, I'd keep the pick if it were #5 and up. 

I strongly disagree about Nash being a franchise player, he's basically been a 70 point player in Columbus. He hasn't had much support, but history show that elite players put up big numbers regardless of support. Nash isn't going to go from a 70 point player to a 100 point player with good linemates, he might be a ppg player with good linemates.

 

[maplesyrup]

I strongly disagree about Nash being a franchise player, he's basically been a 70 point player in Columbus. He hasn't had much support, but history show that elite players put up big numbers regardless of support. Nash isn't going to go from a 70 point player to a 100 point player with good linemates, he might be a ppg player with good linemates.

It's not just all about points for me though.

 

[ontariojames]

I strongly disagree about Nash being a franchise player, he's basically been a 70 point player in Columbus. He hasn't had much support, but history show that elite players put up big numbers regardless of support. Nash isn't going to go from a 70 point player to a 100 point player with good linemates, he might be a ppg player with good linemates.

It's not just all about points for me though.

It isn't for me either. Most people consider Toews to be a franchise player and I have no problem with that despite the fact that Toews isn't a ppg player. Toews is very good defensively,tough, a great leader and has shown the ability to raise his level of play and be great in the playoffs. The only thing Nash has going for him aside from his offence is that he's big tough and physical, we don't know how good of a playoff player he would be since he's only had 4 games of playoff experience.

 

[skrackle]

I'd like to see Nash as a Leaf, but when you factor in what it would likely take to trade for him, plus his age- he's not old but he may be by the time the Leafs can assemble a contender around him- and the fact that he hasn't helped Columbus go anywhere, I'd have to pass.

 

[Deebo]

I strongly disagree about Nash being a franchise player, he's basically been a 70 point player in Columbus. He hasn't had much support, but history show that elite players put up big numbers regardless of support. Nash isn't going to go from a 70 point player to a 100 point player with good linemates, he might be a ppg player with good linemates.

It's not just all about points for me though.

It isn't for me either. Most people consider Toews to be a franchise player and I have no problem with that despite the fact that Toews isn't a ppg player. Toews is very good defensively,tough, a great leader and has shown the ability to raise his level of play and be great in the playoffs. The only thing Nash has going for him aside from his offence is that he's big tough and physical, we don't know how good of a playoff player he would be since he's only had 4 games of playoff experience.

53 points in 54 games for Canada, not quite the same as playoffs, but lots of those games must have been elimination games.

 

[cw]

I strongly disagree about Nash being a franchise player, he's basically been a 70 point player in Columbus. He hasn't had much support, but history show that elite players put up big numbers regardless of support. Nash isn't going to go from a 70 point player to a 100 point player with good linemates, he might be a ppg player with good linemates.

It's not just all about points for me though.

It isn't for me either. Most people consider Toews to be a franchise player and I have no problem with that despite the fact that Toews isn't a ppg player. Toews is very good defensively,tough, a great leader and has shown the ability to raise his level of play and be great in the playoffs. The only thing Nash has going for him aside from his offence is that he's big tough and physical, we don't know how good of a playoff player he would be since he's only had 4 games of playoff experience.

53 points in 54 games for Canada, not quite the same as playoffs, but lots of those games must have been elimination games.

We could bicker about the definition of franchise player but if I had my pick of all the wingers in the league, I think Ovechkin is the only guy I'd take ahead of him. That's off the top of my head and maybe I missed a guy or two but still, Nash is a remarkable hockey talent.

He's just had garbage talent to play with. No decent center and no decent offensive dman for most of his time in Columbus. Part of the reason he has more goals than assists is because he's lacked talent to play with that can finish.

Having said that, I'm close to skrackle's position though it would depend on what they have to give up. I expect they'd have to give up a fair amount so I'd probably pass. Timing factors in on constructing a contender - the young guys have to develop so they can chip in cost effectively under the cap. Nash would probably be headed towards decline as the young Leafs complete their development and peak.

 

[Tigger]

the young guys have to develop so they can chip in cost effectively under the cap.

I think the Leafs have to hope one of Getzlaf/Perry is available by then, maybe an outside chance at Parise but the following year makes more sense.

I don't think they can but the Leafs should keep their pick and try to see if there's any truth to Columbus/Edmonton trading a pick, having two young potential top players coming down the pike sort of reminds me of the situation in Anaheim when Burke had his ultimate success, y'know, I'm tryin' a knock that out the park, Albert Pujols...

 

[PG]

The leafs look as they did before Burke took over 4-5 years ago with no results its almost a miracle this clown is allowed to keep yapping about how great his team is.

Well he finally quit yapping the last few days eh? I'm  not surprised he's disappeared (at least from the media I read) after 8-0 and 5-2.

I honestly think Burke has been served a very generous helping of humble pie. The Sun has been absolutely trashing him and some other media outlets are slowly following suit.

 

[armche123]

The leafs look as they did before Burke took over 4-5 years ago with no results its almost a miracle this clown is allowed to keep yapping about how great his team is.

Well he finally quit yapping the last few days eh? I'm  not surprised he's disappeared (at least from the media I read) after 8-0 and 5-2.

I honestly think Burke has been served a very generous helping of humble pie. The Sun has been absolutely trashing him and some other media outlets are slowly following suit.

sorry to say.. i feel its the Toronto media trying to have a field day with fans that haven't had the taste of playoff hockey in order to really stand for a team they believe in and love. good night

 

[nutman]

The leafs look as they did before Burke took over 4-5 years ago with no results its almost a miracle this clown is allowed to keep yapping about how great his team is.

Well he finally quit yapping the last few days eh? I'm  not surprised he's disappeared (at least from the media I read) after 8-0 and 5-2.

I honestly think Burke has been served a very generous helping of humble pie. The Sun has been absolutely trashing him and some other media outlets are slowly following suit.

sorry to say.. i feel its the Toronto media trying to have a field day with fans that haven't had the taste of playoff hockey in order to really stand for a team they believe in and love. good night

well I have been quiet since the big drop, but I cant let this go past without saying that I agree 100%.  the toronto media sucks big time and needs to print the positive as well as the bad. we all know the Leafs bombed, but why do they not look at the system Burke has put together. why not start putting the marlies on the front page. well I guess its a case of the blind press leading the hungry Leaf fans. nuff said.