The Brian Burke Thread

[ZBBM]

I don't really understand what there is to debate.  Whoever posted his record vs. JFJ's did us all a favor.  People keep saying JFJ left us with a crap roster.  Maybe so.  But he achieved more with that crap than Burke has.  Even more telling is how the GF/GA ratio has fallen apart under Burke.

By any objective standard Burke has been a failure.  He deserves to be fired the moment the season ends this Saturday.

 

[Deebo]

People keep saying JFJ left us with a crap roster.  Maybe so.  But he achieved more with that crap than Burke has.

JFJ took over a playoff team that got progressivley worse each season he was here until he was let go. His teams were built on players that got here well before he arrived, just about everyone he added to the team was a bust apart from Niewendyk. He only made bad trades (Rask, 1st, 2nd, 3rd for Toskala and Raycroft). Over his tenure, he added nothing to the depth of the organization and we are feeling that now.

When the Blues were drafting Oshie, Backes and Berglund we got Sagat, Kumkumberg and Oreskevic. When the Rangers were adding Callahan and Dubinsky to thier prospect pool JFJ drafted Robbie Earl and Maxim Semenov.

Gunnarsson was the only player that JFJ drafted who made a significant contribution to this season's team. Kulemin, Frattin and Reimer are other JFJ draftees on the team. Stalberg, Stralman and Tlusty are players he accquired and were here when he left that are elsewhere in the NHL. That's what is meant by he left us a crap roster.

The roster he left us wasn't the same roster that produced the results on the chart that was posted, it was much worse.

 

[ZBBM]

People keep saying JFJ left us with a crap roster.  Maybe so.  But he achieved more with that crap than Burke has.

JFJ took over a playoff team that got progressivley worse each season he was here until he was let go. His teams were built on players that got here well before he arrived, just about everyone he added to the team was a bust apart from Niewendyk. He only made bad trades (Rask, 1st, 2nd, 3rd for Toskala and Raycroft). Over his tenure, he added nothing to the depth of the organization and we are feeling that now.

When the Blues were drafting Oshie, Backes and Berglund we got Sagat, Kumkumberg and Oreskevic. When the Rangers were adding Callahan and Dubinsky to thier prospect pool JFJ drafted Robbie Earl and Maxim Semenov.

Gunnarsson was the only player that JFJ drafted who made a significant contribution to this season's team. Kulemin, Frattin and Reimer are other JFJ draftees on the team. Stalberg, Stralman and Tlusty are players he accquired and were here when he left that are elsewhere in the NHL. That's what is meant by he left us a crap roster.

The roster he left us wasn't the same roster that produced the results on the chart that was posted, it was much worse.

By "progressively worse" you mean a team that missed the playoffs by a point or 2 two years running, and then dropped off.  Burke OTOH hasn't gotten anywhere close to the playoffs.

It's a standard trope that JFJ was a complete disaster as GM while Burke is somehow positioning us for a grand future even though he's compiled a far worse record.  The numbers don't bear that out.

 

[pnjunction]

Also Burke traded away what ended up being 3 high quality picks to Boston so we aren't as stocked up as we could be on future entry-level talent either.  The more things changed the more they stayed the same.

 

[Kin]

It's a standard trope that JFJ was a complete disaster as GM while Burke is somehow positioning us for a grand future even though he's compiled a far worse record.  The numbers don't bear that out.

But that largely ignores the reality of the timeframe that a team is built by. JFJ doesn't deserve credit for teams that were largely built by Quinn and previous regimes. Ferguson didn't build the 05-06 team, the major pieces were guys that already there.

Now, I don't know if I subscribe to the "grand future" idea surrounding Burke but JFJ was an unmitigated disaster as GM.

 

[Deebo]

People keep saying JFJ left us with a crap roster.  Maybe so.  But he achieved more with that crap than Burke has.

JFJ took over a playoff team that got progressivley worse each season he was here until he was let go. His teams were built on players that got here well before he arrived, just about everyone he added to the team was a bust apart from Niewendyk. He only made bad trades (Rask, 1st, 2nd, 3rd for Toskala and Raycroft). Over his tenure, he added nothing to the depth of the organization and we are feeling that now.

When the Blues were drafting Oshie, Backes and Berglund we got Sagat, Kumkumberg and Oreskevic. When the Rangers were adding Callahan and Dubinsky to thier prospect pool JFJ drafted Robbie Earl and Maxim Semenov.

Gunnarsson was the only player that JFJ drafted who made a significant contribution to this season's team. Kulemin, Frattin and Reimer are other JFJ draftees on the team. Stalberg, Stralman and Tlusty are players he accquired and were here when he left that are elsewhere in the NHL. That's what is meant by he left us a crap roster.

The roster he left us wasn't the same roster that produced the results on the chart that was posted, it was much worse.

By "progressively worse" you mean a team that missed the playoffs by a point or 2 two years running, and then dropped off.  Burke OTOH hasn't gotten anywhere close to the playoffs.

It's a standard trope that JFJ was a complete disaster as GM while Burke is somehow positioning us for a grand future even though he's compiled a far worse record.  The numbers don't bear that out.

I'm strictly talking about what JFJ did to the franchise and the state of the team when he left, which, again, is very different than what the team looked like in those years that they missed the playoffs by a point or 2.

He inherited a 98 point team, added a couple complimentary players, then they had a 103 point season.

Post lockout, they dropped by over 10 points (with the addition of the shoot out) and had 90 and 91 point non playoff years and then dropped another 8 points with an 83 point season, that's what I mean by progressively worse.

While they got worse he traded away the equivilant of 2 first round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd for Raycroft and Toskala and added little of significance to organization.

There is a reason JFJ got fired after only 4 seasons in charge, it's because he was a disaster.

I personally think Burke should be given more time, but I can see why some might want him fired.

My only point was that the crappy roster that Burke inherited was much crappier than the roster JFJ had while his teams were achieving marginally better results.

 

[Deebo]

Also Burke traded away what ended up being 3 high quality picks to Boston so we aren't as stocked up as we could be on future entry-level talent either.  The more things changed the more they stayed the same.

If you ignore the massive gap in the returns for the picks Burke got a top 10 scorer for his picks, JFJ got nothing.

Burke has also added 1st round talent... Colborne, Gardiner, Percy, Biggs, Kadri.

Some of these guys may not pan out, but the only 1st rounder JFJ added, and kept, was Tlusty.

 

[hockeyfan1]

If anyone had to choose between Burke and JFJ on the idea of which one was better in terms of 'hockey management knowledge, Brian Burke handily wins.


At first glance, the Leafs seem a worse team statistically-speaking (most goals allowed, low overall points/non-playoffs, over-paying/contracts of certain players not seemingly having contributed to the improvement of the team, etcetera, etcetera).  But...


....comparing the player acquisitions/signings/potentials/depth/futures, etc., in no way does JFJ even remotely compare to Burke.  Looking at the overall picture, and since the Leafs are/were the youngest/second youngest team in the NHL, perhaps as long as we can remember, success cannot be expected overnight.  'Growing pains' is what the Leafs are going through now, a much different 'growing pains from the JFJ years.

 

[rdowdall]

Also, JFJ had Sundin on his roster for the "near miss" years.  No one on the current Leafs squad comes close to his presence.

 

[Corn Flake]

So he didn't think it would take 5 years and it has (or will or whatever) ... so?  So it took longer than he hoped it would when he said that in week 1 on the job.  His actions of the last 2 years are more telling about how long this was going to take in his mind.

I think he was hoping for more out of the UFA market when he talked about a timeline:
- but the UFA market since been pretty barren since Burke took over in Toronto
- and of the older UFAs Burke did sign, a bunch didn't pan out starting with Komisarek

Trades often even out as a 50/50 proposition - a GM gives up roughly equivalent talent value and gets that back in return.

UFAs do have busts but I'd say they work out ok more than 50% of the time.

The odd thing about Burke's term so far is that I'd say he's done better on his trades than he has with his UFA signings.

I would certainly agree with you on the last statement. 

He most certainly was more brash about how fast he could turn the team around when he was staring down the 2009 UFA season with the Sedins clearly his prime targets, had Gustavsson in his sights as this stud goalie from Sweden, had the Kessel trade in plan, thought Beauchemin and Komisarek would bolster his defense, and bet on Toskala being able to carry the load while Gus got acclimated to the NHL.  So then basically everything on that list goes wrong with the exception of acquiring Kessel, but of course all those other things failing made the one thing that went right look bad (the Seguin pick).  Then the dried up 2010 trade deadline comes into play, he gets little in a weak fire sale. etc etc etc...

I think if his 2009 plans had panned out as he expected them to, it would have indeed been quick turnaround at least to being competitive, but then throw in the Phaneuf trade and a few others and things start moving even faster.  Then filling out the roster with the kids and they come into a successful environment... his brash claims when he came on could very well have proven true. 

I think that one summer threw everything off and it's made things painfully slow because of it.

 

[lamajama]

I love how we debate "who sucked more"...

Life as a Leaf fan is hard.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

While the roster appears to be better under Burke than JFJ, the results are still not there.  The current roster was not good enough to get into the playoffs this season, and I do not foresee anything that Burke could do for the Leafs that would help them get into the playoffs next season while providing long term stability and success to the team. 

 

[ZBBM]

Is there anyone here who cares to argue that Burke's results are so much better than JFJ's that no comparison at all is warranted?

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Burke can bluster all he wants.  He can even fool some people into thinking he's a hockey genius or something.  But if you are going to give him credit for having won a Cup (which, BTW, some folks say he inherited, if you like to use that line of thinking) then he deserves blame for having utterly failed to improve the team's results (as distinct from improving the team's prospects, which at this point is entirely speculative) while Leafs GM.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we can reasonably debate whether JFJ or Burke has been the better Leafs GM is indictment enough of Burke.

 

[rdowdall]

Is there anyone here who cares to argue that Burke's results are so much better than JFJ's that no comparison at all is warranted?

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Burke can bluster all he wants.  He can even fool some people into thinking he's a hockey genius or something.  But if you are going to give him credit for having won a Cup (which, BTW, some folks say he inherited, if you like to use that line of thinking) then he deserves blame for having utterly failed to improve the team's results (as distinct from improving the team's prospects, which at this point is entirely speculative) while Leafs GM.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we can reasonably debate whether JFJ or Burke has been the better Leafs GM is indictment enough of Burke.

I think that last sentence is the point of contention.  I will agree with you though that we cannot call the Burke era a success. Really we have had two bad management teams in a row.

 

[maplesyrup]

I love how we debate "who sucked more"...

Life as a Leaf fan is hard.

Amen, brother.

 

[Champ Kind]

Is there anyone here who cares to argue that Burke's results are so much better than JFJ's that no comparison at all is warranted?

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Burke can bluster all he wants.  He can even fool some people into thinking he's a hockey genius or something.  But if you are going to give him credit for having won a Cup (which, BTW, some folks say he inherited, if you like to use that line of thinking) then he deserves blame for having utterly failed to improve the team's results (as distinct from improving the team's prospects, which at this point is entirely speculative) while Leafs GM.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we can reasonably debate whether JFJ or Burke has been the better Leafs GM is indictment enough of Burke.

Buck, I can also see why there is growing resentment and contempt for Burke.  I don't share this view, however.  Free agent signings aside, the team this year has underperformed.  I'm not sure you can say that of any JFJ team.  In fact, in most instances I'd say they played over the head, bouyed by a world-class captain and inferior goalies that actually, for a year each, didn't play that bad (Toskala and Raycroft).

You've also got to acknowledge that subjectively and objectively the depth of the organization is much better now.  The Marlies were consistently poor under JFJ.  This year, as the maturation of the prospect pool continues, we can all see the results at the AHL level.

But the record of the big club is the meat and potatoes of the matter, I agree and understand.  But I think most of us can look at the two regimes and see that Burke's tenure has been much better.

 

[Kin]

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Yeah, I'm sorry but that just does not make one lick of sense. If I get hired by the Red Wings tomorrow then at no point is Pavel Datsyuk being on the team, or the results I can get by having him as a centrepiece, attributable to me.

No GM can just snap his fingers and conjure up a franchise player and it takes time for them to emerge.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Yeah, I'm sorry but that just does not make one lick of sense. If I get hired by the Red Wings tomorrow then at no point is Pavel Datsyuk being on the team, or the results I can get by having him as a centrepiece, attributable to me.

No GM can just snap his fingers and conjure up a franchise player and it takes time for them to emerge.

Hence my statement "a season or 2."  As opposed to finger-snapping.

For better or worse, after that, it's "your" problem/success.  (That's the way it works in American presidential politics, BTW.)

 

[ZBBM]

Is there anyone here who cares to argue that Burke's results are so much better than JFJ's that no comparison at all is warranted?

I don't buy this "But he inherited a better team" argument as being definitive.  Sure it makes a difference who you start out with.  But, once the keys are yours, and you've had a season or 2 to make changes, then you shoulder all the praise or blame.  After 2 seasons JFJ still had the team in the hunt.  After 2 seasons under BB we were stuck in neutral, and after 3 are actually going backwards.

Burke can bluster all he wants.  He can even fool some people into thinking he's a hockey genius or something.  But if you are going to give him credit for having won a Cup (which, BTW, some folks say he inherited, if you like to use that line of thinking) then he deserves blame for having utterly failed to improve the team's results (as distinct from improving the team's prospects, which at this point is entirely speculative) while Leafs GM.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that we can reasonably debate whether JFJ or Burke has been the better Leafs GM is indictment enough of Burke.

Buck, I can also see why there is growing resentment and contempt for Burke.  I don't share this view, however.  Free agent signings aside, the team this year has underperformed.  I'm not sure you can say that of any JFJ team.  In fact, in most instances I'd say they played over the head, bouyed by a world-class captain and inferior goalies that actually, for a year each, didn't play that bad (Toskala and Raycroft).

You've also got to acknowledge that subjectively and objectively the depth of the organization is much better now.  The Marlies were consistently poor under JFJ.  This year, as the maturation of the prospect pool continues, we can all see the results at the AHL level.

But the record of the big club is the meat and potatoes of the matter, I agree and understand.  But I think most of us can look at the two regimes and see that Burke's tenure has been much better.

True, but as I suggested above, until the supposed high potential of Burke's farm-building is actually realized at the NHL level, his alleged advantage over JFJ is all speculative.  If and when the prospects pan out, then and only then can we say that Burke's tenure is better.  Because as of now his on-ice results are markedly worse.

 

[Kin]

Hence my statement "a season or 2."  As opposed to finger-snapping.

Ok, well, no GM can magically turn up a franchise player in a season or two either. For the most part it takes time, development and patience.

For better or worse, after that, it's "your" problem/success.  (That's the way it works in American presidential politics, BTW.)

And, clearly, if there's one place we should be looking for sane, rational criticism it's American politics.