The Brian Burke Thread

[lc9]

Well, no, I can't be serious about people asking me to come up with nonsense numbers based on information none of us are privy to but, yet, I can make out that Kessel, Grabo and Lupul are developing as players.

You won't even speculate?

 

[Bender]

You said Kessel is the same player he was when the team traded for him as part of your "evidence" that the team isn't developing players. That's pretty clearly not the case.

What part of Kessels game has changed besides Lupul putting the puck in the net when Kessel passes it to him and teams having more than one player to zero in on?

This is just nutty. A little thing called DEFENSE and BACKCHECKING.

 

[Kin]

What part of Kessels game has changed besides Lupul putting the puck in the net when Kessel passes it to him and teams having more than one player to zero in on?

He's grown by leaps and bounds as a passer/playmaker.

 

[Tigger]

Wasn't there a post somewhere that stated they are the most inexperienced tandem in the league?

So they should let in weak goals because of this?

That's not the point, no.

They are learning their craft, not every goalie is Lundqvist. They also have a bit of 'Peter Ing' syndrome, playing behind a team that openly acknowledges trading chances and allowing a lot of high risk rubber to be directed their way.

The team from 4 years ago is an awful lot different than the one this year in that the long term is actually being looked at instead of stop gap solutions. That's the basics, they're building a team, not tacking extruded siding over silicone and cracked basements.

 

[lc9]

You said Kessel is the same player he was when the team traded for him as part of your "evidence" that the team isn't developing players. That's pretty clearly not the case.

What part of Kessels game has changed besides Lupul putting the puck in the net when Kessel passes it to him and teams having more than one player to zero in on?

This is just nutty. A little thing called DEFENSE and BACKCHECKING.

Yes you're right, Kessel has reinvented himself as defensive player.  That is why he gets all those PK minutes...oh wait.

Back checking and back checking effectively are two different things. 

 

[Kin]

You won't even speculate?

To the point where I'm going to pull numbers out of my butt? Sure, I can. You just saw me. But it's nonsense. I'm fine to speculate that Kessel's improvement is a combination of coaching/organizational development/line mates/natural improvement. Anything more specific than that is really a waste of time and while I'm usually all about wasting time it's a boring waste of time.

 

[lc9]

What part of Kessels game has changed besides Lupul putting the puck in the net when Kessel passes it to him and teams having more than one player to zero in on?

He's grown by leaps and bounds as a passer/playmaker.

I agree, buy why?  Do you think he has more room because of Lupul?  Do you think Lupul finishes better than previous linemates?  What I am getting at is that Lupul has opened the ice for Kessel, and they have both blossomed.  A great trade by Burke.  It's no coincidence that Kessel got to be a better play maker this season.

 

[lc9]

You won't even speculate?

To the point where I'm going to pull numbers out of my butt? Sure, I can. You just saw me. But it's nonsense. I'm fine to speculate that Kessel's improvement is a combination of coaching/organizational development/line mates/natural improvement. Anything more specific than that is really a waste of time and while I'm usually all about wasting time it's a boring waste of time.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Lupul was the primary reason Kessel has gotten better, more so than any other factor. 

 

[lc9]

OK, I have to be done, work is over for me.  I know most of you think I am way off base, but the discussion helped me.

 

[Kin]

I agree, buy why?  Do you think he has more room because of Lupul?  Do you think Lupul finishes better than previous linemates?  What I am getting at is that Lupul has opened the ice for Kessel, and they have both blossomed.  A great trade by Burke.  It's no coincidence that Kessel got to be a better play maker this season.

Lupul is a factor. But it's also his own development. Lupul finishing off the passes don't make the passes any better. Kessel is making better plays with the puck, both in traffic and outside of it. I've watched Kessel for years and it's not like he never had any space before Lupul showed up. Now he's doing better things with the space he has and that's as much about his own development as anything else.

You said Kessel is the same player he was and that is just 100% categorically untrue.

 

[Tigger]

You won't even speculate?

To the point where I'm going to pull numbers out of my butt? Sure, I can. You just saw me. But it's nonsense. I'm fine to speculate that Kessel's improvement is a combination of coaching/organizational development/line mates/natural improvement. Anything more specific than that is really a waste of time and while I'm usually all about wasting time it's a boring waste of time.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Lupul was the primary reason Kessel has gotten better, more so than any other factor.

You've been railing against Burke, have said you love the development of these two and that Lupul is the prime reason for Kessel's development so... who brought Lupul to Toronto?

That's a bit facetious as there's some luck involved in any trade but he also brought in Gardiner from that deal, just lot's of luck?

 

[lamajama]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

Actually, it matters not given that Burke has by his own definition failed, (even if not by your measure).

That definition was that he would be able to return this team to respectability and the playoffs well in advance of 5 years -- a term that he said was unacceptably too long.

Well, here we are breathing on year 5 with a roster that has be turned over about every 1.5 years, coming up short yet again in the goaltending department (despite Burke's own promise over a year ago that he would never be in that position again) and draft picks squandered and we are still grasping at a playoff spot (the success of which is almost wholly dependent on the utter collapse of the Crapitals).

Now there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

ENOUGH.

 

[Zee]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

Actually, it matters not given that Burke has by his own definition failed, (even if not by your measure).

That definition was that he would be able to return this team to respectability and the playoffs well in advance of 5 years -- a term that he said was unacceptably too long.

Well, here we are breathing on year 5 with a roster that has be turned over about every 1.5 years, coming up short yet again in the goaltending department (despite Burke's own promise over a year ago that he would never be in that position again) and draft picks squandered and we are still grasping at a playoff spot (the success of which is almost wholly dependent on the utter collapse of the Crapitals).

Now there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

ENOUGH.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and he keeps Wilson, Burke should be fired. Full stop.

 

[Tigger]

Personally I don't think there's any doubt Wilson will be fired if the Leafs miss the playoffs and I'd be in full agreement with it.

 

[Deebo]

there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

What rumblings?

Are you sure it isn't just gas?

 

[Strangelove]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

Actually, it matters not given that Burke has by his own definition failed, (even if not by your measure).

That definition was that he would be able to return this team to respectability and the playoffs well in advance of 5 years -- a term that he said was unacceptably too long.

Well, here we are breathing on year 5 with a roster that has be turned over about every 1.5 years, coming up short yet again in the goaltending department (despite Burke's own promise over a year ago that he would never be in that position again) and draft picks squandered and we are still grasping at a playoff spot (the success of which is almost wholly dependent on the utter collapse of the Crapitals).

Now there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

ENOUGH.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and he keeps Wilson, Burke should be fired. Full stop.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and their line-up is left looking more or less like it does now  I'm not so sure he shouldn't be fired anyway.  It's really not clear that we're any closer to contending now than when he took over.

Edit: Of course, it has to be asked whether there is anyone better out there, and whether he could have done any better given the position the team was in.  But I don't really see winning a core here, or even the foundation of one.  There are gaping holes all over the line-up with no obvious candidates to fill them, prospects or -otherwise.

 

[proteus2000]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

Actually, it matters not given that Burke has by his own definition failed, (even if not by your measure).

That definition was that he would be able to return this team to respectability and the playoffs well in advance of 5 years -- a term that he said was unacceptably too long.

Well, here we are breathing on year 5 with a roster that has be turned over about every 1.5 years, coming up short yet again in the goaltending department (despite Burke's own promise over a year ago that he would never be in that position again) and draft picks squandered and we are still grasping at a playoff spot (the success of which is almost wholly dependent on the utter collapse of the Crapitals).

Now there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

ENOUGH.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and he keeps Wilson, Burke should be fired. Full stop.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and their line-up is left looking more or less like it does now  I'm not so sure he shouldn't be fired anyway.  It's really not clear that we're any closer to contending now than when he took over.

Edit: Of course, it has to be asked whether there is anyone better out there, and whether he could have done any better given the position the team was in.  But I don't really see winning a core here, or even the foundation of one.  There are gaping holes all over the line-up with no obvious candidates to fill them, prospects or -otherwise.

I though that within 4 yrs Burke would have a very solid, tight checking 3rd/4th lines, reliable defense, and a good goalie. None of this has happened. Without Lupul + Kessel's crazy production this yr we would be very close to a lottery pick. The Leafs have a lot of holes.

 

[lamajama]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

I'm not making any distinction. I think Leaf Nation was prepared and accepting of a
teardown/rebuild. Burke has attempted to do it his way (a re-tool) that has never worked - A re-tool can only occur when you have assets that are prized and can be flipped for draft picks and top prospects. The Leafs had few of those. Now here we are 4 years later, scrabbling for 8th place with shoddy goaltending and shoddy
defensive play. As I said, this pre-occupation with "entertaining" hockey might be needed to attract fans in the South but not in Ontario ergo my comment for less "entertaining" more "winning" (and tiger blood while we're at it... )

 

[Tigger]

Burke has attempted to do it his way (a re-tool) that has never worked - A re-tool can only occur when you have assets that are prized and can be flipped for draft picks and top prospects.

Well that and the free agent market didn't appear as I'm sure he hoped it would, if he had landed the Sedins it might have gone more his way. I think last years deadline showed that he had abandoned most of the notion of 're-tooling', fwiw.