The Brian Burke Thread

[Wendel's Fist]

I'm getting really tired of Brian's world and his rules when he can be fired at any time. It was ok at first because we lured him out of Anaheim but not making the playoffs in 4 years when HE wasn't interested in a 5 year rebuilding plan, really doesn't sit well.

Good thing we're building from the net out.

Hopefully something happens by Monday afternoon to change things.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

I'm not making any distinction. I think Leaf Nation was prepared and accepting of a
teardown/rebuild. Burke has attempted to do it his way (a re-tool) that has never worked - A re-tool can only occur when you have assets that are prized and can be flipped for draft picks and top prospects. The Leafs had few of those. Now here we are 4 years later, scrabbling for 8th place with shoddy goaltending and shoddy
defensive play. As I said, this pre-occupation with "entertaining" hockey might be needed to attract fans in the South but not in Ontario ergo my comment for less "entertaining" more "winning" (and tiger blood while we're at it... )

We have our fair share of tools in this line-up so enough with the re-tooling, I say.

 

[lc9]

You've been railing against Burke, have said you love the development of these two and that Lupul is the prime reason for Kessel's development so... who brought Lupul to Toronto?

That's a bit facetious as there's some luck involved in any trade but he also brought in Gardiner from that deal, just lot's of luck?

I never said it was luck, at all.  I said it was a steal of trade and a great move by burke.  Why put words in my mouth?

Yes, Lupul has helped Kessels development, and vice versa, but this is still a 10th place team in the East.  Burke hasn't done a good enough job.

People wanted to talk about direction, like it is clear as day.  Yet this whole board is alive with buy or sell debate at the trade deadline, no one knows what to do or what the direction should be. 

 

[KW Sluggo]

This article pretty much expresses my opinion of our progress to date and the fulfillment of the promises made during the Burke era.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/article/1136873--feschuk-house-that-brian-burke-built-quickly-crumbling

I will not go as far as the Sun article that argues that statistically the Burke results are inferior to JFJs for the simple reason that JFJ inherited a much better team that he proceeded to ruin and which was then left as Burke's starting point.

The Star article is damning enough however.

Promised truculence, etc, and a build from goal and defence out, we have poor goaltending, unbelievably bad defensive coverage, two, maybe three decent forwards (depending whether Grabo shows up) and despite have a relatively young team, we are spending near the salary cap (why?).

There should be very few untouchables on this roster. IMO they would be, Gardiner, Lupul and Kessel.

As for the rest... "see ya" and replace them with Marlies, starting with Dallas Eakins.

 

[azzurri63]

I think Burke has done a "good" job in rebuilding the mess that was JFJ's Leafs - in terms of prospects. Poor job in overall improvement on the ice because the proof is in the pudding.

What is somewhat scary right now is that IF he makes a move for Nash, that will require a significant alteration from the Burke retool (not rebuild) process. That Cap hit will have ramifications all down the roster because you know that we need a stud D man and an actual goalie as well as bye bye Grabbo etc.

What happens in the next 72 hours will shape the direction substantially but I still support Burke. The only real area I do not support Burke is this notion that Leaf fans need this "up-tempo" style of play to entertain us. Yes, up-tempo is fun but wins and being in the playoffs solidly would be just as jazzing

And we all know this...Leaf Nation is not going away or far.

Rebuild or retool, you use both and yet try to make a distinction.

Which one is it?

Actually, it matters not given that Burke has by his own definition failed, (even if not by your measure).

That definition was that he would be able to return this team to respectability and the playoffs well in advance of 5 years -- a term that he said was unacceptably too long.

Well, here we are breathing on year 5 with a roster that has be turned over about every 1.5 years, coming up short yet again in the goaltending department (despite Burke's own promise over a year ago that he would never be in that position again) and draft picks squandered and we are still grasping at a playoff spot (the success of which is almost wholly dependent on the utter collapse of the Crapitals).

Now there are rumblings that he will retain Wilson even if we miss the playoffs again.

ENOUGH.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and he keeps Wilson, Burke should be fired. Full stop.

If the Leafs miss the playoffs and their line-up is left looking more or less like it does now  I'm not so sure he shouldn't be fired anyway.  It's really not clear that we're any closer to contending now than when he took over.

Edit: Of course, it has to be asked whether there is anyone better out there, and whether he could have done any better given the position the team was in.  But I don't really see winning a core here, or even the foundation of one.  There are gaping holes all over the line-up with no obvious candidates to fill them, prospects or -otherwise.

I though that within 4 yrs Burke would have a very solid, tight checking 3rd/4th lines, reliable defense, and a good goalie. None of this has happened. Without Lupul + Kessel's crazy production this yr we would be very close to a lottery pick. The Leafs have a lot of holes.

We are very close to a lottery pick.

 

[rdowdall]

Have all the threads you want.  It doesn't matter.  Bring in a different GM and then all that will happen is the creation of a new thread with a new name.  It should just be The <currrent GM> Thread and the Fire the <current coach> thread.  It's been *7* years.  Seven.  The only team that has been out of the playoffs longer is the Florida Panthers.

Seven years.  The last time that the Leafs made the playoffs was in 2004.  Nazem Kadri wasn't even close to the OHL at that point. 

I just don't get it.  Call it pessimism, call it doom and gloom, call it whatever you want to call it, but I don't see how firing someone and hiring someone new is going to fix this.  The whole freakin' organization stinks.  Conn Smyth is rolling in his grave and rightfully so.

If a management team that consists of 2 GM's can't fix this team, then really what hope do the Leafs have other than getting lucky.  And they aren't lucky.

How does this happen?  How does a team that has the resources that the Leafs have end up like this?  How is it in the past four decades the Leafs have had two decades of the 4 where they have been absolutely dreadful?

I don't get it.  I just don't understand it.

 

[proteus2000]

Have all the threads you want.  It doesn't matter.  Bring in a different GM and then all that will happen is the creation of a new thread with a new name.  It should just be The <currrent GM> Thread and the Fire the <current coach> thread.  It's been *7* years.  Seven. The only team that has been out of the playoffs longer is the Florida Panthers.

Seven years.  The last time that the Leafs made the playoffs was in 2004.  Nazem Kadri wasn't even close to the OHL at that point. 

I just don't get it.  Call it pessimism, call it doom and gloom, call it whatever you want to call it, but I don't see how firing someone and hiring someone new is going to fix this.  The whole freakin' organization stinks.  Conn Smyth is rolling in his grave and rightfully so.

If a management team that consists of 2 GM's can't fix this team, then really what hope do the Leafs have other than getting lucky.  And they aren't lucky.

How does this happen?  How does a team that has the resources that the Leafs have end up like this?  How is it in the past four decades the Leafs have had two decades of the 4 where they have been absolutely dreadful?

I don't get it.  I just don't understand it.

I think the panthers will make it over the jets and celebrate a post season, possibly as a 3rd seed. The leafs will be in lonely company next yr.

 

[skrackle]

Lots of doom and gloom lately, and yes it's justified for the most part. I thought this year might finally be the year where the long hope-crushing losing streak didn't happen. It seems it was just postponed for a while.

I like Brian Burke personally, and he is deserving of credit in strengthening the Leafs office staff and for finally starting to bring some youth with potential into the Leafs prospect pool. I haven't forgotten the JFJ years, and I've thus granted Burke a huge mulligan in getting the Leafs ship turned in the right direction.

My main concern with Burke is his tendency to change horses mid-stream. The whole quick retool "win sooner- not interested in a traditional rebuild" stuff that Burke came out with put a damper on some of my initial enthusiasm over his hiring. I'm kind of amazed that he didn't see that the Leafs had pretty much nothing and weren't going to be winning anything anytime soon. The current Leafs team doesn't seem to be one of truculence built from the net out.

Rather than re-hash everything, I'll just say some good things have happened during the Burke regime, but I don't think it's possible to build a winning team through trades and UFA signings.

I've so far maintained a 'you aren't doing it my way, but what do I know' attitude and I'm still on board with that. For now, anyway. I don't want to see any panic moves like trading youth that really hasn't had a shot yet.

 

[proteus2000]

Lots of doom and gloom lately, and yes it's justified for the most part. I thought this year might finally be the year where the long hope-crushing losing streak didn't happen. It seems it was just postponed for a while.

I like Brian Burke personally, and he is deserving of credit in strengthening the Leafs office staff and for finally starting to bring some youth with potential into the Leafs prospect pool. I haven't forgotten the JFJ years, and I've thus granted Burke a huge mulligan in getting the Leafs ship turned in the right direction.

My main concern with Burke is his tendency to change horses mid-stream. The whole quick retool "win sooner- not interested in a traditional rebuild" stuff that Burke came out with put a damper on some of my initial enthusiasm over his hiring. I'm kind of amazed that he didn't see that the Leafs had pretty much nothing and weren't going to be winning anything anytime soon. The current Leafs team doesn't seem to be one of truculence built from the net out.

Rather than re-hash everything, I'll just say some good things have happened during the Burke regime, but I don't think it's possible to build a winning team through trades and UFA signings.
I've so far maintained a 'you aren't doing it my way, but what do I know' attitude and I'm still on board with that. For now, anyway. I don't want to see any panic moves like trading youth that really hasn't had a shot yet.

Yeah the front office has done a good job through trades getting some decent prospects that other teams may have undervalued- Gardiner, Aulie, Colborne, etc. If they do go the trade route I'd much prefer to use their high budget front office to pick off these guys who may develop in the next few years than get blanket draft picks. They certainly are not in a position to package a bunch of assets for Nash, etc.

 

[nutman]

Burke we want Miller, so get it done. Miller could make your buddy Wilson look real good.

 

[cap44]

Burke we want Miller, so get it done. Miller could make your buddy Wilson look real good.

NOTHING at this stage of the game can make Wilson look good and he (Wilson)is making Burke look like a total moron for keeping him around

 

[sampson]

Burke keeps picking his nose on the leafs live boardroom feed. haha

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

At least Burke wasn't in a different country this time around.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

so that's it done right?

 

[Bullfrog]

Burke's been out of the country during the trade deadline before?

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Burke's been out of the country during the trade deadline before?

Comment was regarding the UFA season, should have made that clearer, sorry.

 

[lc9]

At least Burke wasn't in a different country this time around.

Baby steps:

Year 4: remain in country

 

[Kin]

Just watched the press conference. I've never, ever heard more complacency from a team in this sort of situation.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Just watched the press conference. I've never, ever heard more complacency from a team in this sort of situation.

If they don't start winning soon they might actually regress from last year at the time when the entire Eastern Conference has imploded. Now, if that's what a 5 year retool supposed to achieve then they are right on schedule.

 

[Bender]

Just watched the press conference. I've never, ever heard more complacency from a team in this sort of situation.

Yeah, I agree. He's also very good at twisting the truth. "The team dominated for stretches." Not really, just at the beginning of the season. They've been a .500 team the rest of the way, and times even worse than that.