The Lupul Situation

[Zee]

There's an option you're missing.

4.  Lupul is physically able to play but agreed to sit out and collect his money.

That's not materially different than just saying he's telling the truth. He didn't say what was happening to him was against his will, again he hasn't filed a grievance, just that the "physical" he failed was a farce and he was capable of coming back if they wanted him to.

Agreed, and we can make an educated guess that Lupul has agreed to the situation that he's in, otherwise he could have filed a grievance as you mentioned.  If, and it's a big IF that he's in agreement with sitting out, it's a bit disingenuous of him to now take this public and blame the Leafs in something he's complicit in.  I just find it amusing that he made the comment and then deleted it. 

 

[Zee]

One last thing to note:

Leafs haven't placed Lupul on LTIR.  Only Horton.  Lupul was on regular IR last year as they never exceeded the cap by more than Horton's salary.  So, really they aren't skirting the cap, just a roster spot- which the could solve by demoting him (of course, can't demote someone who's injured )

What would happen if the Leafs allowed him to come back, assigned him to the Orlando Solar Bears of the ECHL and he refused to report?  Could they terminate his contract?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Speaking of "injured" players and the Leafs, this didn't really get picked up on much but Jared Cowen spoke out about what happened to him the other day. Safe to say he wasn't very pleased about how that situation turned out:

?I wish teams would have more of an interest in taking better care of their players instead of whatever their goal or mindset was there,? Cowen, at Colorado Avalanche training camp on a professional tryout, said Friday.

...

?Basically, they got me, figured out that I was hurt, they didn?t want to deal with it and they got rid of me,? Cowen said.

...

?It was a joke of a process,? Cowen said. ?But, it?s in the past. It was a stressful time in my life, in terms of getting traded, getting bought out, getting waived, finding out I needed surgeries.?

http://bsndenver.com/jared-cowen-after-bitter-departure-from-maple-leafs-hoping-for-new-life-with-avalanche/

 

[Zee]

Speaking of "injured" players and the Leafs, this didn't really get picked up on much but Jared Cowen spoke out about what happened to him the other day. Safe to say he wasn't very pleased about how that situation turned out:

?I wish teams would have more of an interest in taking better care of their players instead of whatever their goal or mindset was there,? Cowen, at Colorado Avalanche training camp on a professional tryout, said Friday.

...

?Basically, they got me, figured out that I was hurt, they didn?t want to deal with it and they got rid of me,? Cowen said.

...

?It was a joke of a process,? Cowen said. ?But, it?s in the past. It was a stressful time in my life, in terms of getting traded, getting bought out, getting waived, finding out I needed surgeries.?

http://bsndenver.com/jared-cowen-after-bitter-departure-from-maple-leafs-hoping-for-new-life-with-avalanche/

It's funny, the Cowen situation is basically the reverse of Lupul.  Leafs said Cowen was healthy and bought him out, Cowen insisted he wasn't healthy. 

 

[Coco-puffs]

One last thing to note:

Leafs haven't placed Lupul on LTIR.  Only Horton.  Lupul was on regular IR last year as they never exceeded the cap by more than Horton's salary.  So, really they aren't skirting the cap, just a roster spot- which the could solve by demoting him (of course, can't demote someone who's injured )

What would happen if the Leafs allowed him to come back, assigned him to the Orlando Solar Bears of the ECHL and he refused to report?  Could they terminate his contract?

I don't think so.  I believe they can suspend him without pay.  Doesn't benefit him to do that.  Although last year, they had assigned a few guys to the Marlies (Laich, Michalek) that weren't really on the roster for long.  Never suspended them, but basically said you don't have to show up anymore and you'll still get paid.  I think in both cases they played for a little bit then figured they weren't going to get called up and finally threw in the towel. 

 

[Kin]

If, and it's a big IF that he's in agreement with sitting out, it's a bit disingenuous of him to now take this public and blame the Leafs in something he's complicit in.

It's nothing of the sort. It's neither insincere nor untruthful. And I really don't think what he did or said was about blame outside of acknowledging the patently obvious truth that the Leafs don't want him there, that it was ultimately their decision and that the idea that what's keeping him out is a failed physical is disingenuous.

Honestly it really seems like the people who have a problem with Lupul here are doing so on the basis of "How dare he slander the Maple Leafs with the truth that we all know anyway."

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm moreso just curious to see if this prompts the league to do anything. We all know that this has been going on for awhile, and not just with the Leafs. But like with Zetterberg openly admitting that he signed his contract knowing he wouldn't play it out (comments that he too backtracked on when he came back to North America), nobody has ever actually spoken publicly about it. Now that they have can the league keep turning a blind eye?

 

[Kin]

I'm moreso just curious to see if this prompts the league to do anything. We all know that this has been going on for awhile, and not just with the Leafs. But like with Zetterberg openly admitting that he signed his contract knowing he wouldn't play it out (comments that he too backtracked on when he came back to North America), nobody has ever actually spoken publicly about it. Now that they have can the league keep turning a blind eye?

That's a really interesting point and maybe I'm wildly off-base here but I kind of a get a sense, with revenues flat and teams about to realize they just voted to get a 1/31 share of league revenues instead of 1/30 that there's kind of a reluctance on the part of the League office to go after the big market revenue generating teams who can do this sort of thing.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I'm moreso just curious to see if this prompts the league to do anything. We all know that this has been going on for awhile, and not just with the Leafs. But like with Zetterberg openly admitting that he signed his contract knowing he wouldn't play it out (comments that he too backtracked on when he came back to North America), nobody has ever actually spoken publicly about it. Now that they have can the league keep turning a blind eye?

That's a really interesting point and maybe I'm wildly off-base here but I kind of a get a sense, with revenues flat and teams about to realize they just voted to get a 1/31 share of league revenues instead of 1/30 that there's kind of a reluctance on the part of the League office to go after the big market revenue generating teams who can do this sort of thing.

If Lupul stood by what he was saying, maybe something happens. But he deleted his comment. He'll need to stand up and complain for anyone to do anything.

This will fizzle out I bet.

 

[Bill_Berg]

If this does fizzle out, I will be interested to see if he tries out for another team next year.

 

[Kin]

I'm moreso just curious to see if this prompts the league to do anything. We all know that this has been going on for awhile, and not just with the Leafs. But like with Zetterberg openly admitting that he signed his contract knowing he wouldn't play it out (comments that he too backtracked on when he came back to North America), nobody has ever actually spoken publicly about it. Now that they have can the league keep turning a blind eye?

That's a really interesting point and maybe I'm wildly off-base here but I kind of a get a sense, with revenues flat and teams about to realize they just voted to get a 1/31 share of league revenues instead of 1/30 that there's kind of a reluctance on the part of the League office to go after the big market revenue generating teams who can do this sort of thing.

If Lupul stood by what he was saying, maybe something happens. But he deleted his comment. He'll need to stand up and complain for anyone to do anything.

What I just wrote really doesn't have anything to do with Lupul(who, again, I don't think was "complaining"). You can effectively substitute Zetterberg or Robidas or, heck, even the heavy use of signing bonuses for the point if it moves you on from Lupul.

Bigger market teams are being "creative" with the cap. I think in the past, the league would have taken issue with that. Now, I'm guessing they'll allow the big fish more latitude.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I'm moreso just curious to see if this prompts the league to do anything. We all know that this has been going on for awhile, and not just with the Leafs. But like with Zetterberg openly admitting that he signed his contract knowing he wouldn't play it out (comments that he too backtracked on when he came back to North America), nobody has ever actually spoken publicly about it. Now that they have can the league keep turning a blind eye?

That's a really interesting point and maybe I'm wildly off-base here but I kind of a get a sense, with revenues flat and teams about to realize they just voted to get a 1/31 share of league revenues instead of 1/30 that there's kind of a reluctance on the part of the League office to go after the big market revenue generating teams who can do this sort of thing.

If Lupul stood by what he was saying, maybe something happens. But he deleted his comment. He'll need to stand up and complain for anyone to do anything.

What I just wrote really doesn't have anything to do with Lupul(who, again, I don't think was "complaining"). You can effectively substitute Zetterberg or Robidas or, heck, even the heavy use of signing bonuses for the point if it moves you on from Lupul.

Bigger market teams are being "creative" with the cap. I think in the past, the league would have taken issue with that. Now, I'm guessing they'll allow the big fish more latitude.

I didn't mean to counter your point, I was more responding to Carlton's blind eye comment. I quoted you because I though what I was saying was an alternative point.

 

[Kin]

I didn't mean to counter your point, I was more responding to Carlton's blind eye comment. I quoted you because I though what I was saying was an alternative point.

Right but I think that in a general league-wide sense, and I don't want to speak for Carlton here, but Lupul "standing by" what he said or complaining shouldn't in theory matter to the league, right? Because if Lupul was quiet and happy to collect the paycheck he isn't earning and isn't really injured then the League should still care because A) it's bad to not really have honest physical examinations and B) circumventing the cap is still cap circumvention even if player and team are both ok with it.

 

[bustaheims]

Ahhh... that's a little different than the way they spun it on FAN 590 this morning.

Leave it to sports radio jockeys to not really understand how social media works/what the image circulating around the internet actually represents.

 

[bustaheims]

What would happen if the Leafs allowed him to come back, assigned him to the Orlando Solar Bears of the ECHL and he refused to report?  Could they terminate his contract?

Players on non-ELCs can't be assigned to the ECHL without their consent, so . . .

 

[Bill_Berg]

I didn't mean to counter your point, I was more responding to Carlton's blind eye comment. I quoted you because I though what I was saying was an alternative point.

Right but I think that in a general league-wide sense, and I don't want to speak for Carlton here, but Lupul "standing by" what he said or complaining shouldn't in theory matter to the league, right? Because if Lupul was quiet and happy to collect the paycheck he isn't earning and isn't really injured then the League should still care because A) it's bad to not really have honest physical examinations and B) circumventing the cap is still cap circumvention even if player and team are both ok with it.

Sure, I would expect them to care, but then I would also have expected them to do something last year, if they could do anything about it. The difference between last year and this year is the potential to have a vocal player, one that's willing to provide evidence that shows the Leafs are doing something wrong. Without that, how can the League prove anything? Or if they don't care, cause they want to let the Leafs get away with something, then Lupul talking about this non-stop may force their hand.

 

[bustaheims]

I mean to some extent there's just a simple logical progression here. One of these three things has to be true:

1. Joffrey Lupul is so badly injured that not only did he fail his physical but he really had no chance of passing his physical. This despite no real word on what his injury is short of a hernia surgery and it not really seeming to negatively affect his life at all(compared to, say, Nathan Horton who has trouble getting around and picking up his kids)

2. There was a chance of Lupul passing his physical but the Leafs, throwing caution to the wind, spent to the cap anyway and figured they'd just improvise something if Lupul passed his physical.

3. Lupul is effectively telling the truth.

Sometimes, sometimes, you can Occam's Razor it.

I mean, you can do that, sure, but, your second suggestion doesn't actually represent the reality of the situation, as the Leafs don't need to have Lupul on LTIR in order to be cap compliant. As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Horton's LTIR space is all that's required there. So, we can completely rule that out as an option.

I also think you're missing the most obvious and most likely scenario - Lupul is upset/in denial about the fact that he failed to meet the standards required to be cleared to play in the NHL - which may not have a significant impact on his day-to-day life or he could simply be ignoring the potential impact (for example, it could be concussion related, and he's willing to accept the risks to enjoy his chosen leisure activities - which doesn't feel like it would be wildly out of character for him - or the team's insurance has deemed him too significant a risk, etc.) - and he's projecting blame rather than accepting reality.

 

[bustaheims]

Speaking of "injured" players and the Leafs, this didn't really get picked up on much but Jared Cowen spoke out about what happened to him the other day. Safe to say he wasn't very pleased about how that situation turned out:

?I wish teams would have more of an interest in taking better care of their players instead of whatever their goal or mindset was there,? Cowen, at Colorado Avalanche training camp on a professional tryout, said Friday.

...

?Basically, they got me, figured out that I was hurt, they didn?t want to deal with it and they got rid of me,? Cowen said.

...

?It was a joke of a process,? Cowen said. ?But, it?s in the past. It was a stressful time in my life, in terms of getting traded, getting bought out, getting waived, finding out I needed surgeries.?

http://bsndenver.com/jared-cowen-after-bitter-departure-from-maple-leafs-hoping-for-new-life-with-avalanche/

I saw that, but, it felt more like a case of sour grapes rather than any actual wrongdoing by the team. A third party ruled against Cowen, and he's clearly upset about losing that case/income.

 

[Zee]

If, and it's a big IF that he's in agreement with sitting out, it's a bit disingenuous of him to now take this public and blame the Leafs in something he's complicit in.

It's nothing of the sort. It's neither insincere nor untruthful. And I really don't think what he did or said was about blame outside of acknowledging the patently obvious truth that the Leafs don't want him there, that it was ultimately their decision and that the idea that what's keeping him out is a failed physical is disingenuous.

Honestly it really seems like the people who have a problem with Lupul here are doing so on the basis of "How dare he slander the Maple Leafs with the truth that we all know anyway."

But there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Lupul was fit and ready to play in 2016/2017.  In the summer Kadri had mentioned in an interview that he spoke with Lupul and he was under the impression Lupul was ready to go and eager for the season.  Then it comes out Lupul isn't fit to play.  That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

 

[Kin]

Sure, I would expect them to care, but then I would also have expected them to do something last year, if they could do anything about it. The difference between last year and this year is the potential to have a vocal player, one that's willing to provide evidence that shows the Leafs are doing something wrong. Without that, how can the League prove anything? Or if they don't care, cause they want to let the Leafs get away with something, then Lupul talking about this non-stop may force their hand.

I really think, in order to get what I'm saying, you need to forget Lupul for a second. Remember, Coco-puffs already referenced that the League can, with the PA, choose to challenge the determination of a team doctor with a neutral doctor if they doubt a player is legitimately injured.

Again, like I said, I think the League doesn't really have the will right now to take on their bigger, richer clubs on these issues. It is not a matter of individual cases.