The Lupul Situation

[bustaheims]

But there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Lupul was fit and ready to play in 2016/2017.  In the summer Kadri had mentioned in an interview that he spoke with Lupul and he was under the impression Lupul was ready to go and eager for the season.  Then it comes out Lupul isn't fit to play.  That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Lupul believing himself to be healthy and Lupul being healthy are two very different things. It feels to me like you're stretching the evidence to fit your theory and assuming a deception rather than building a theory off the available evidence. It's entirely possible - if not likely - that Lupul would not be aware of the details surrounding potential insurance issues related to the team and his health, some underlying physical issues that may not be been displaying symptoms but showed up in medical testing, etc.

 

[Zee]

But there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Lupul was fit and ready to play in 2016/2017.  In the summer Kadri had mentioned in an interview that he spoke with Lupul and he was under the impression Lupul was ready to go and eager for the season.  Then it comes out Lupul isn't fit to play.  That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Lupul believing himself to be healthy and Lupul being healthy are two very different things. It feels to me like you're stretching the evidence to fit your theory and assuming a deception rather than building a theory off the available evidence. It's entirely possible - if not likely - that Lupul would not be aware of the details surrounding potential insurance issues related to the team and his health, some underlying physical issues that may not be been displaying symptoms but showed up in medical testing, etc.

Based on his comments from last night, it seems he believes himself to be healthy now.  So why hasn't he taken proper course of action with the PA?

 

[Kin]

That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Again, I don't think this is an issue of "blame". This is Lupul simply stating something we know is true. He didn't fail a physical. He'd play if the Leafs wanted him to. They don't, so he won't. It doesn't make sense for any Leafs fans to use "failing" a bogus physical as reason for anything.

Seriously. You're acting like he's breaking Omerta here.

 

[Zee]

That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Seriously. You're acting like he's breaking Omerta here.

Well he did.  ;D

 

[Bonsixx]

Pretty sure Lupul missed 15 games with a broken Omerta back in 2014.

That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Seriously. You're acting like he's breaking Omerta here.

Well he did.  ;D

 

[Zee]

Pretty sure Lupul missed 15 games with a broken Omerta back in 2014.

That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Seriously. You're acting like he's breaking Omerta here.

Well he did.  ;D

You broke my heart Joffrey!  you broke my heart!

 

[Coco-puffs]

If, and it's a big IF that he's in agreement with sitting out, it's a bit disingenuous of him to now take this public and blame the Leafs in something he's complicit in.

It's nothing of the sort. It's neither insincere nor untruthful. And I really don't think what he did or said was about blame outside of acknowledging the patently obvious truth that the Leafs don't want him there, that it was ultimately their decision and that the idea that what's keeping him out is a failed physical is disingenuous.

Honestly it really seems like the people who have a problem with Lupul here are doing so on the basis of "How dare he slander the Maple Leafs with the truth that we all know anyway."

But there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Lupul was fit and ready to play in 2016/2017.  In the summer Kadri had mentioned in an interview that he spoke with Lupul and he was under the impression Lupul was ready to go and eager for the season.  Then it comes out Lupul isn't fit to play.  That tells me the Leafs had a conversation with Lupul, told him they weren't interested in him playing, and Lupul agreed to the terms.  That makes him an active participant in the deception, so he's equally to blame for the shenanigans.

Lupul was likely given the following options:
1)  Agree to stay on IR and shut-up about it.
2)  Come back, and we'll demote you to the AHL

When your hand is forced, I wouldn't blame each side equally!

 

[bustaheims]

Based on his comments from last night, it seems he believes himself to be healthy now.  So why hasn't he taken proper course of action with the PA?

What someone puts out publicly and what they actually believe/know to be true are often two different things. it's entirely possible he just felt like someone on Instagram was calling him out, in a moment of frustration, and he was trying to deflect the blame. That also explain why he deleted the comment relatively quickly.

 

[Frank E]

I mean to some extent there's just a simple logical progression here. One of these three things has to be true:

1. Joffrey Lupul is so badly injured that not only did he fail his physical but he really had no chance of passing his physical. This despite no real word on what his injury is short of a hernia surgery and it not really seeming to negatively affect his life at all(compared to, say, Nathan Horton who has trouble getting around and picking up his kids)

2. There was a chance of Lupul passing his physical but the Leafs, throwing caution to the wind, spent to the cap anyway and figured they'd just improvise something if Lupul passed his physical.

3. Lupul is effectively telling the truth.

Sometimes, sometimes, you can Occam's Razor it.

I mean, you can do that, sure, but, your second suggestion doesn't actually represent the reality of the situation, as the Leafs don't need to have Lupul on LTIR in order to be cap compliant. As was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Horton's LTIR space is all that's required there. So, we can completely rule that out as an option.

I also think you're missing the most obvious and most likely scenario - Lupul is upset/in denial about the fact that he failed to meet the standards required to be cleared to play in the NHL - which may not have a significant impact on his day-to-day life or he could simply be ignoring the potential impact (for example, it could be concussion related, and he's willing to accept the risks to enjoy his chosen leisure activities - which doesn't feel like it would be wildly out of character for him - or the team's insurance has deemed him too significant a risk, etc.) - and he's projecting blame rather than accepting reality.

He has avenues for for formal grievances that to this point he hasn't pursued, as far as has been reported.

So, I think he's full of shit.

 

[Kin]

He has avenues for for formal grievances that to this point has hasn't pursued, as far as has been reported.

So, I think he's full of shit.

What exactly is it about "He's being paid a ton of money to do nothing" that isn't getting through?

 

[Zee]

If this does fizzle out, I will be interested to see if he tries out for another team next year.

If he's serious about playing I assume he'll try to get a PTO next season with a club.  Whether anyone is willing to offer him a deal is anyone's guess.  Not sure that at 34 years of age and out of pro hockey for 3 seasons if he'll be able to compete.

 

[bustaheims]

He has avenues for for formal grievances that to this point he hasn't pursued, as far as has been reported.

So, I think he's full of shit.

He does, and while I think Nik's rationale for why he may not have pursued them has some merit, I agree with you in that, were this a clear cut situation where he's healthy and the team is denying it, he'd likely pursue a grievance. In the murky grey area that we're actually looking at, however, I understand why he wouldn't. At this point, with his injury history, having sat out all of last season, etc., the cards are stacked against him. I happen to feel like the team's assessment is legitimate - either in terms of it being an insurance issue or a legitimate underlying health issue, or simply an unreported issue that Lupul feels he can play through - but, I understand why Lupul is upset and feels cheated.

 

[Frank E]

He has avenues for for formal grievances that to this point has hasn't pursued, as far as has been reported.

So, I think he's full of shit.

What exactly is it about "He's being paid a ton of money to do nothing" that isn't getting through?

Because I don't believe the deceit would be worth the risk for the Leafs, nor its doctors.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Sure, I would expect them to care, but then I would also have expected them to do something last year, if they could do anything about it. The difference between last year and this year is the potential to have a vocal player, one that's willing to provide evidence that shows the Leafs are doing something wrong. Without that, how can the League prove anything? Or if they don't care, cause they want to let the Leafs get away with something, then Lupul talking about this non-stop may force their hand.

I really think, in order to get what I'm saying, you need to forget Lupul for a second. Remember, Coco-puffs already referenced that the League can, with the PA, choose to challenge the determination of a team doctor with a neutral doctor if they doubt a player is legitimately injured.

Again, like I said, I think the League doesn't really have the will right now to take on their bigger, richer clubs on these issues. It is not a matter of individual cases.

I get what you're saying, and if it is true, still, one player posting something to social media will not change the league's mind. Heck, maybe a year long social media tirade won't change their mind.

I do tend to think that if the league can do something, it would at least be easier for them if they had a co-operative player. I mean a guy like Lupul could tell a neutral doctor that is actually does hurt when he laughs.

 

[Kin]

Lupul's meeting with Dubas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66I7Mhkkl64

 

[Kin]

I get what you're saying...

See, you say that, and then you immediately go back to Lupul.

 

[Kin]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

Honestly, I don't see anyone here reacting that way.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I get what you're saying...

See, you say that, and then you immediately go back to Lupul.

He is the topic of this particular thread.

 

[bustaheims]

I swear. For years and years everyone on this board is joking about "Robidas Island" and then the second a player acknowledges there's some truth there it's "HOW DARE THAT TRAITOR SUGGEST EVERYTHING ISN'T ON THE UP AND UP!?!!?!?!"

Honestly, I don't see anyone here reacting that way.

Neither do I, nor was the joke about sending someone to Robidas Island not frequently met with the rebuttal that, unless the team can come up with legitimate reasoning to do so, the risk outweighs the reward/no doctor would risk his qualification and reputation to lie for the team/etc.

EDIT: I also always hated the term Robidas Island, for a number of reasons, but that's a different discussion altogether.