The Official Complaint Thread!

[Frank E]

Frank, would your position change if every EV sold came with an extra $1000 dealership commision/taxbreak?

That wouldn't affect my thinking that going to the source of the pollution is probably a better way to tackle the pollution.

My being in the auto industry is irrelevant.  We sell and service whatever the market demands.  Whether they be electric, fuel cell, or whatever, it really doesn't make any difference.

Tax breaks come and go, but putting tax breaks on cars that only a fraction of people can afford really isn't going to spur sales.  And as far as dealership incentives go, it makes zero difference.  We deal in rates of return of 2%-3% of sales.  The manufacturers are the ones that make the money in the auto industry in Canada, not the dealers. 

 

[cabber24]

You're into a pretty hefty debate in terms of if this is the best way to spend tax dollars toward that goal.

This isn't being done in isolation though. It's part of a comprehensive strategy to encourage electric cars. Making them more convenient and able to suit your needs is just part of the strategy and it's a minimal outlay.

Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

Totally agree with this comment, we're not their yet.

 

[bustaheims]

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

 

[Bullfrog]

Just for some perspective, the 500 charging stations will cost about 20 million or 40,000 per or 1.47 per Ontarian.

Even if this reduces carbon emissions a little or promotes electric car manufacturing, I think that's a pretty reasonable investment.

I'll pay $2.94 in order to spare cabber24 the financial burden.

 

[Bates]

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so. 

 

[Bullfrog]

So this has left me wondering.

What leaves a heavier carbon footprint, the production of hydrogen or lithium ion batteries?

Probably depends significantly on the source of the electricity required to create the hydrogen cells. I don't know much about the specifics, but apparently the electricity demand is huge.

 

[Bates]

If rich folk and green folk want to waste their time with electric vehicles then it only seems appropriate that they should also waste their own money to pay for it.

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

You're into a pretty hefty debate in terms of if this is the best way to spend tax dollars toward that goal.

This isn't being done in isolation though. It's part of a comprehensive strategy to encourage electric cars. Making them more convenient and able to suit your needs is just part of the strategy and it's a minimal outlay.

Maybe, but as in other countries that have gone down this road, it doesn't really address the bigger source of the pollution.

You could take this sort of argument to all kinds of ridiculous conclusions in terms of how tax dollars are spent.  Why spend tax dollars on police arresting drug dealers when it doesn't address the bigger source of the addiction problem, etc etc.

It seems like people get up in arms a lot more when it comes to public investment in electric/green initiatives than anything else.  I don't even recall much discussion here about the government bailing out the car companies a number of years ago.

 

[herman]

Just for some perspective, the 500 charging stations will cost about 20 million or 40,000 per or 1.47 per Ontarian.

Even if this reduces carbon emissions a little or promotes electric car manufacturing, I think that's a pretty reasonable investment.

I'll pay $2.94 in order to spare cabber24 the financial burden.

I already called dibs on this. Can you cover Bates'?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

If rich folk and green folk want to waste their time with electric vehicles then it only seems appropriate that they should also waste their own money to pay for it.

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so.

Why should green initiatives not receive government assistance or subsidies the way fossil-fuel-related industries have for decades?

 

[Bates]

Here in NA we are increasing costs to citizens with green initiatives while accounting for less than 2% of worldwide green house gasses. Meanwhile in China they are building a new coal fired power plant every week or so while accounting for well over 20% of worldwide green house gasses? And we call this progress?  Now we want to spend millions of citizens dollars on electric car technology that will make zero difference and might help reduce one of the top industries in our Country. We sure have become a silly crowd here in Canada.

 

[Bates]

Don't worry about it, just add it to the already crippling debt your Province in carrying.

Just for some perspective, the 500 charging stations will cost about 20 million or 40,000 per or 1.47 per Ontarian.

Even if this reduces carbon emissions a little or promotes electric car manufacturing, I think that's a pretty reasonable investment.

I'll pay $2.94 in order to spare cabber24 the financial burden.

I already called dibs on this. Can you cover Bates'?

 

[Bates]

Support the industry that creates jobs, you talked about a rebate to buyers.  These can be very different.  And the car industry is important to almost everyone.  The Green industry benefits very few.

If rich folk and green folk want to waste their time with electric vehicles then it only seems appropriate that they should also waste their own money to pay for it.

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so.

Why should green initiatives not receive government assistance or subsidies the way fossil-fuel-related industries have for decades?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Support the industry that creates jobs, you talked about a rebate to buyers.  These can be very different.  And the car industry is important to almost everyone.  The Green industry benefits very few.

If rich folk and green folk want to waste their time with electric vehicles then it only seems appropriate that they should also waste their own money to pay for it.

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so.

Why should green initiatives not receive government assistance or subsidies the way fossil-fuel-related industries have for decades?

There's that Boomer attitude!

 

[cabber24]

I think you guys are missing my point. Electric cars are great, public charging stations are not. Current technology dictates electric cars are suitable for short distance travel only, charging for 40 minutes every 2 hours while traveling does not make sense. Use these cars close to home and charge at home. Don't waste money on public charging stations.

 

[Bates]

Yeah I'm 45.  I have absolutely nothing against electric cars or green industries that also make some sort of financial sense.  Subsidizing rich folks cars that change zero in the environment make little sense. 

Support the industry that creates jobs, you talked about a rebate to buyers.  These can be very different.  And the car industry is important to almost everyone.  The Green industry benefits very few.

If rich folk and green folk want to waste their time with electric vehicles then it only seems appropriate that they should also waste their own money to pay for it.

Why the need for a Rebate?  If people want to own an electric vehicle why can't they pay the full cost of that Vehicle?

Right now, electric vehicles are an expensive luxury that won't be mainstream for years, perhaps even never if fuel cell technology has some more breakthroughs in the coming decade. Spending money on a charging infrastructure that will likely be obsolete soon is not where I'd be spending money, especially given the state of the books of the province.

They won't always be an expensive luxury - in fact, a number of models from the major car manufacturers could very well be affordable with a rebate within the next 5 years. The infrastructure to support these vehicles needs to in place before there's an increase in the amount on the road, not after. They may never become the dominant type of vehicle on the road, but, it doesn't feel like we're that far away from them being in the price range where they could represent 15-20%+ of new cars hitting the road.

And, these charging stations won't be obsolete, either. New electric car batteries will still almost certainly rely on the same types of plugs and they'll still require electricity. If the need arises, I'm pretty sure these charging stations can be upgraded and enhanced at less cost than installing new stations. Until the technology hits a serious generational upgrade (which is likely further down the timeline than significant enhancements in their efficiency/load bearing is), these stations will be useful.

Because they are like any other incentive, the idea is to encourage people to do something because they will receive this perceived benefit for doing so.

Why should green initiatives not receive government assistance or subsidies the way fossil-fuel-related industries have for decades?

There's that Boomer attitude!

 

[Kin]

I think you guys are missing my point. Electric cars are great, public charging stations are not. Current technology dictates electric cars are suitable for short distance travel only, charging for 40 minutes every 2 hours while traveling does not make sense. Use these cars close to home and charge at home. Don't waste money on public charging stations.

Except I've given you a concrete example of how it does make sense. It takes me about 2 hours 15 minutes to drive to my cottage. It's not a trip that makes sense in an Electric Car right now. If there are easily accessible charge points on the way, it does. It's not like the difference between two hours and fifteen minutes and three hours is the difference between me going to my cottage or not.

 

[Kin]

Electric cars are still built by the automotive industry. If government rebates can result in an electric car that is relatively affordable and can build an infrastructure that minimizes practical concerns than there's huge financial incentive for the auto industry to invest in the technology.

It's not like the government only started building roads once the combustion engine was perfected.

 

[Bullfrog]

I think you guys are missing my point. Electric cars are great, public charging stations are not. Current technology dictates electric cars are suitable for short distance travel only, charging for 40 minutes every 2 hours while traveling does not make sense. Use these cars close to home and charge at home. Don't waste money on public charging stations.

Except I've given you a concrete example of how it does make sense. It takes me about 2 hours 15 minutes to drive to my cottage. It's not a trip that makes sense in an Electric Car right now. If there are easily accessible charge points on the way, it does. It's not like the difference between two hours and fifteen minutes and three hours is the difference between me going to my cottage or not.

Think of all the productive things you could do in that 40 minutes. It's a blessing really.