The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread
- Thread starter Kin
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13th fan
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I thought it was pretty funny , even though its a parody there is some truth to it (warning strong language)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sdhJf4hBoQ&NR=1
Coaches on the hot seat - Mike Brophy
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/08/17/brophy_aug17/
Ron Wilson, Toronto Maple Leafs: You could make the case Wilson has not been given much to work with, but at the end of the day no playoff appearances in three seasons in Toronto coupled with lousy special teams has him on the hot seat. With all the changes GM Brian Burke has made to this team, including changing Wilson's assistant coaches, this team had better be in playoff contention from the get-go or else. If not, it would seem logical that a coaching change will be made.
Darryl Boyce is the only Leaf to have played for the Leafs before Wilson arrived (one game). Grabovski, Schenn & Kulemin are the only three Leafs remaining from Wilson's first season with the Leafs. At least 73 different players have played a game for the Leafs under Wilson (who chooses the roster from training camp).
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2011/08/17/brophy_aug17/
Ron Wilson, Toronto Maple Leafs: You could make the case Wilson has not been given much to work with, but at the end of the day no playoff appearances in three seasons in Toronto coupled with lousy special teams has him on the hot seat. With all the changes GM Brian Burke has made to this team, including changing Wilson's assistant coaches, this team had better be in playoff contention from the get-go or else. If not, it would seem logical that a coaching change will be made.
Darryl Boyce is the only Leaf to have played for the Leafs before Wilson arrived (one game). Grabovski, Schenn & Kulemin are the only three Leafs remaining from Wilson's first season with the Leafs. At least 73 different players have played a game for the Leafs under Wilson (who chooses the roster from training camp).
BlueWhiteBlood
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cw said:
I don't get that they or whoever expected Ron Wilson to make the playoffs with as much turnover that has gone on since he arrived. Is that even realistic? Hot seat?
BlueWhiteBlood
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Saint Nik said:
Yeah, I'm less worried about his situation with Burke, than the way the media talks about him, about how he failed to make the playoffs, like it was some kind of expectation. I just feel that it was unrealistic in the first place, when they ripped what poor team was there down and started to build it back up. They talk about the Leafs of the past three years like they were only tinkered with, which is not what I witnessed.
Kin
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BlueWhiteBlood said:
I think that enough players have struggled and regressed/hit bumps in the road that it's fair to say that Wilson probably didn't get the absolute most he could have from his team. I think a lot of his personnel decisions are pretty suspect as well.
I don't think he's done a tremendous job and the hot seat is probably well earned.
BlueWhiteBlood
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Saint Nik said:
So, just so I have some perspective on that, how common is it for teams to make the playoffs in their first three years of a major rebuild? I mean becoming as young as the Leafs have. What is a realistic target?
I just don't think that Punch Imlach in his hay day, could have coached the Leafs of the past three years to the playoffs, certainly not to do anything other than lose in the first round.
Kin
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BlueWhiteBlood said:
Not very but, then again, it's also probably pretty uncommon for a team in the midst of a "major rebuild" to have several high priced veteran defensemen. Remember how, for quite a while, everyone here was repeating the Burke mantra of "It's not a rebuild, it's a retooling" and how Burke himself said he wasn't going for a five year rebuild?
The idea that what the Leafs have engaged in has been a traditonal rebuild seems, to me, to be an excuse being made for the failure of the "retooling".
BlueWhiteBlood said:
Burke did say he wasn't "rebuilding" - he said that he was "retooling". His UFA signings of Beauchemin & Komisarek & Armstrong for example, reflected that. So did trading picks/prospects to get Kessel or Versteeg for example - to accelerate the retooling process.
It's not like rebuilding Edmonton who jettisoned vets and went with a roster of kids to acquire high draft picks.
Burke declared his dmen comparable to any D in the league 1-6 heading into '09-10 and that they'd be in the hunt for playoffs. Pretty close to ditto for last season. That isn't a characteristic of a "rebuilding" team in their first year of the rebuild.
Now I would quickly grant that the UFA market the last couple of summers hasn't been kind to a retooling strategy. And the goaltending was less than desirable. And with Wilson's team falling short, they got younger as guys got dumped.
But hell would freeze over before I could comfortably say that Wilson got the most out of the talent he was given to work with. His special teams coaching is very suspect - in all three seasons - and that isn't all the fault of an assistant (who Wilson was reluctant to remove). I think Wilson has some responsibility for the results.
bustaheims
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cw said:
While Wilson does deserve some of the blame for the Leafs' special teams under his tenure, I can't help but look at the success he had in these areas in his previous coaching stints and feel that the majority of the blame in these areas has to be placed in on an area other than coaching failure.
BlueWhiteBlood
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cw said:
I hear all that and would agree that the special teams haven't been good. What Burke says and what actually went down is besides my point really, if you look at what actually happened, this team and system was rebuilt. They moved almost every body from the old team and even rebuilding teams need vets to stabilize things with the young kids.
So, I'll ask the question again, did anybody really have the expectation for this group to make the playoffs? Sure Burke said he did, but who bought that? The media? I guess I just can't rationalize that Wilson had a team in any of the 3 years that I feel was a group with realistic expectations to make the playoffs, let alone do anything in them.
Burke said a few things about 'retooling' and I understand why, restless expectations and such but when I think of what he did before the deadline this year, Versteeg, Beauchemin, Kaberle I'm left with the notion that he changed his mind given the state of the team.
I agree that Wilson could have done 'better' but even Burke concluded that going forward with the team wasn't worth getting hammered into first round exit oblivion and I like that. It is a change of pace from what he said about making a trade that would get the team into the playoffs before that but it seems to me that the team didn't quit on Wilson down the stretch and that it was a relatively good intuitive step whether Wilson is the bench boss down the road or not.
Looking back I can't say that the player personnel could have squeaked more than a marginal increase in special team effectiveness with Wilson micro managing every detail and highly, highly doubt it would have changed anything in the postseason.
Burke may not be rebuilding a la Edmonton but he is doing his best to accelerate the process given the dismal state of the team he inherited. He's made mistakes but on balance I think he's done a decent job.
Pope'n ain't easy in the Vatican...
I agree that Wilson could have done 'better' but even Burke concluded that going forward with the team wasn't worth getting hammered into first round exit oblivion and I like that. It is a change of pace from what he said about making a trade that would get the team into the playoffs before that but it seems to me that the team didn't quit on Wilson down the stretch and that it was a relatively good intuitive step whether Wilson is the bench boss down the road or not.
Looking back I can't say that the player personnel could have squeaked more than a marginal increase in special team effectiveness with Wilson micro managing every detail and highly, highly doubt it would have changed anything in the postseason.
Burke may not be rebuilding a la Edmonton but he is doing his best to accelerate the process given the dismal state of the team he inherited. He's made mistakes but on balance I think he's done a decent job.
Pope'n ain't easy in the Vatican...
Kin
Active member
BlueWhiteBlood said:
The media and tons of people here. Remember how the Kessel trade was a good gamble because "nobody could have seen the team being as bad as they are"? A lot of people went into the past few seasons here saying the Leafs would be better than they ended up being. They weren't teams devoid of talent.
I think there's a tendency among people apologizing for the job Wilson did to look at the team's failures and say they were destined to fail all along and there's nothing that Wilson could have done about it but that sort of marginalizes the role of a coach and his impact on the individual performance of the players on his team. We can't do it now, unfortunately, but definitely before last season you didn't see a lot of people here saying that the Leafs couldn't possibly make the playoffs.
cw said it. Burke's actions are inconsistent with someone who is rebuilding a team. Burke isn't a liar either. The reason Wilson is on thin ice is that Burke had greater expectations for the Leafs teams he's assembled than Wilson's been able to deliver.
BlueWhiteBlood said:
My position back when was they'd make the playoffs only if they received really good goaltending - which they didn't. And Burke didn't promise the playoffs - it was really stated as an aspiration.
When you have Kaberle, Phanuef & Kessel to staff your PP and finish last in the league on the PP, you have more than a talent problem to explain that shortfall.
Each summer, Pat Quinn would look at his roster and adjust the system and their plays around the talent he was given to work with. He was never set on top 6 - bottom 6 for example which was a flawed premise last year with their lack of scoring in the top 6. He focused on maximizing how the talent he was given would outscore the opponent. I think someone like Pat would have got more out of the talent in Toronto over the past three years.
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