The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[cw]

Burke said a few things about 'retooling' and I understand why, restless expectations and such but when I think of what he did before the deadline this year, Versteeg, Beauchemin, Kaberle I'm left with the notion that he changed his mind given the state of the team.

I think that was Burke's intention. But in order to do that, he had to be able to pick up good UFAs. You can't retool quickly with draft picks and young prospects because they take time to develop. The UFA market the last two summers was barren and I think the largest factor inhibiting Burke's desire to retool quickly.

Burke certainly did his retooling part with trades like acquiring Kessel & Versteeg for younger prospects/picks for example.

To Burke's credit, he didn't sit on his hands. He basically said "as a good roster isn't here and the UFAs aren't there to be had, I'll go to plan B and dump players for prospects & picks".

"Retooling" required the availability of good UFAs that never materialized. So he "restocked" the prospect cupboards instead.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

The media and tons of people here. Remember how the Kessel trade was a good gamble because "nobody could have seen the team being as bad as they are"? A lot of people went into the past few seasons here saying the Leafs would be better than they ended up being. They weren't teams devoid of talent.

I remember a lot of people being happy and thinking they have a good chance to make the playoffs, but that's different than having the expectation. I was one of the people that said we couldn't have seen them being as bad as they were, but I also don't lay that all on Wilson.

I think there's a tendency among people apologizing for the job Wilson did to look at the team's failures and say they were destined to fail all along and there's nothing that Wilson could have done about it but that sort of marginalizes the role of a coach and his impact on the individual performance of the players on his team. We can't do it now, unfortunately, but definitely before last season you didn't see a lot of people here saying that the Leafs couldn't possibly make the playoffs.

I'm an apologist, or are you just talking about those unnamed people? I'm just trying to get some perspective on this, because I don't think it was all Wilson's fault here, like the media seems to portray.
Also, to your point about retooling vs rebuilding. As I've said before, there are many ways to rebuild a team, why does it always have to be the way Edmonton or Chicago or the Penguins did it, to be legitimate? I agree that Burke dug his own hole by saying it was going to be much faster than it has been, but cw said it perfectly, he miscalculated the market and what he was going to be able to do. I just don't know how what Burke does, or wasn't able to do gets laid at Wilson's feet, simply on the basis of not being able to make the playoffs.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Each summer, Pat Quinn would look at his roster and adjust the system and their plays around the talent he was given to work with. He was never set on top 6 - bottom 6 for example which was a flawed premise last year with their lack of scoring in the top 6. He focused on maximizing how the talent he was given would outscore the opponent. I think someone like Pat would have got more out of the talent in Toronto over the past three years.

I'm not saying that Pat couldn't have done some things different and maybe squeezed out a few more points and maybe, somehow propelled this club to having a better special teams record, but I don't think the results of how they fared would have changed much.

Whether we called it a retool or a rebuild, it turned out to be a rebuild and I think many of us realized that as time went on and curbed any enthusiasm we had about playoff fantasies. I just don't believe this was all Wilson's fault and that he should be under the axe as much as he is. Burke may be holding him to a higher standard, but I think that has as much to do with the fans and media calling for action, as it does with him wanting to win badly and try anything to do it and less to do with whether or not Burke feels Wilson is a good coach and can do a better job with a better team.

 

[cw]

Each summer, Pat Quinn would look at his roster and adjust the system and their plays around the talent he was given to work with. He was never set on top 6 - bottom 6 for example which was a flawed premise last year with their lack of scoring in the top 6. He focused on maximizing how the talent he was given would outscore the opponent. I think someone like Pat would have got more out of the talent in Toronto over the past three years.

I'm not saying that Pat couldn't have done some things different and maybe squeezed out a few more points and maybe, somehow propelled this club to having a better special teams record, but I don't think the results of how they fared would have changed much.

Whether we called it a retool or a rebuild, it turned out to be a rebuild and I think many of us realized that as time went on and curbed any enthusiasm we had about playoff fantasies. I just don't believe this was all Wilson's fault and that he should be under the axe as much as he is. Burke may be holding him to a higher standard, but I think that has as much to do with the fans and media calling for action, as it does with him wanting to win badly and try anything to do it and less to do with whether or not Burke feels Wilson is a good coach and can do a better job with a better team.

I don't think Wilson is a terrible coach. He's NHL caliber.

Only two teams have missed the playoffs since the lockout: Florida and Toronto. Not all the teams that made the playoffs since the lockout had an abundance of talent.

If Wilson goes 0-4 for making the playoffs, the GM can't very well justify firing all the players again and say that's it because he's effectively fired about 50 players (two full rosters) already. At some point, the coach has to be accountable that he didn't get more than the sum of the parts out of his opportunities.

Burke is running out of chances himself. I thought his retooling direction was a poor choice but beyond that, I don't think he's done that bad of a job. He's probably got a coaching change left and if he goes 0-5, he's probably unemployed. If he stays with Wilson and goes 0-5, he's definitely unemployed.

When you look at what a difference a coaching change might make, like the Devils last year for example, it's a consideration and eventually a decision a GM  must make.

Some younger players have progressed under Wilson and he probably deserves some credit for that though decent young players arguably progress anyway. But the regression of Kaberle, Beauchemin & Komisarek under Wilson for example or the inability to revitalize Phaneuf or get Kessel to another level for example, or the shortfall of the PP does give one some pause to wonder if this is all purely a lack of talent problem. I don't recall many picking the '09-10 club to finish 29th - they very arguably underachieved.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Only two teams have missed the playoffs since the lockout: Florida and Toronto. Not all the teams that made the playoffs since the lockout had an abundance of talent.

If Wilson goes 0-4 for making the playoffs, the GM can't very well justify firing all the players again and say that's it because he's effectively fired about 50 players (two full rosters) already. At some point, the coach has to be accountable that he didn't get more than the sum of the parts out of his opportunities.

I'm not even saying that Wilson shouldn't be changed after another failed season, or that I would have been all that upset if he got canned this summer, I think my point is going away a little bit here. I just took exception with the way the media talks about the situation, like coach A didn't make the playoffs for three years, so he's automatically on the hot seat, without seemingly looking at the situation the team was in and what players they had or how the team meshed and all that. It's a bit unfair IMO, as we know the Leafs better than anyone around here as fans IMO.

Burke is running out of chances himself. I thought his retooling direction was a poor choice but beyond that, I don't think he's done that bad of a job. He's probably got a coaching change left and if he goes 0-5, he's probably unemployed. If he stays with Wilson and goes 0-5, he's definitely unemployed.

I don't think Burkes job is in jeopardy at all. I think his employers are very happy with the job he's done, I know I am. I love the way he's revamped the system from the top down and filled it with good prospects and the trades he's managed to pull off. I don't think another available GM could have had the same impact here, as Burke has had, so I'm happy to keep him.

When you look at what a difference a coaching change might make, like the Devils last year for example, it's a consideration and eventually a decision a GM  must make.

Some younger players have progressed under Wilson and he probably deserves some credit for that though decent young players arguably progress anyway. But the regression of Kaberle, Beauchemin & Komisarek under Wilson for example or the inability to revitalize Phaneuf or get Kessel to another level for example, or the shortfall of the PP does give one some pause to wonder if this is all purely a lack of talent problem. I don't recall many picking the '09-10 club to finish 29th - they very arguably underachieved.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with the notion that maybe some other coach could have made different decisions and had more or less success, because I just don't know the answer to that. It was simply the cut and dry attitude of the media around how they evaluate the coach and whether or not they should take the fall for things. Wilson was not in a good situation, especially when Burke, as you say, may have changed the plan mid-flight.
I don't even know if I blame Komisarek, Phaneuf and Kessel's development on Wilson either, those three players came here with there own baggage, I'm not sure anybody knows what's wrong with Komisarek. It's hard to argue with Kessel and his almost guaranteed 30 goals a year and I still think Phaneuf will be the player we want him to be.

 

[Kin]

I'm an apologist, or are you just talking about those unnamed people? I'm just trying to get some perspective on this, because I don't think it was all Wilson's fault here, like the media seems to portray.

Also, to your point about retooling vs rebuilding. As I've said before, there are many ways to rebuild a team, why does it always have to be the way Edmonton or Chicago or the Penguins did it, to be legitimate? I agree that Burke dug his own hole by saying it was going to be much faster than it has been, but cw said it perfectly, he miscalculated the market and what he was going to be able to do. I just don't know how what Burke does, or wasn't able to do gets laid at Wilson's feet, simply on the basis of not being able to make the playoffs.

Well, for starters, if the basic issue is whether or not Wilson is going to keep his job then what Burke thinks is going to play a pretty big role.

I think that, contrary to what you've said repeatedly, any media member asked about the Maple Leafs would say that part of the failure is attributable to Burke, part to Wilson and part to the players. That doesn't absolve any of them and it doesn't change that Wilson is probably the first of that bunch to be let go.

If we wanted to have separate discussions about Burke's failings or about how a lot of the players haven't played well we could do that too. Saying Wilson has done a poor job and is on the hot seat doesn't preclude that.

Nobody is arguing an all or nothing here. In saying Wilson's done a poor job and should be fired doesn't mean all of the failings of the last few years are his. It just means most people are going to look at the disappointing results and think that A) Wilson has contributed in part to those results and that B) Burke is probably going to be looking for someone to deliver better results.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Well, for starters, if the basic issue is whether or not Wilson is going to keep his job then what Burke thinks is going to play a pretty big role.

I think that, contrary to what you've said repeatedly, any media member asked about the Maple Leafs would say that part of the failure is attributable to Burke, part to Wilson and part to the players. That doesn't absolve any of them and it doesn't change that Wilson is probably the first of that bunch to be let go.

If we wanted to have separate discussions about Burke's failings or about how a lot of the players haven't played well we could do that too. Saying Wilson has done a poor job and is on the hot seat doesn't preclude that.

Nobody is arguing an all or nothing here. In saying Wilson's done a poor job and should be fired doesn't mean all of the failings of the last few years are his. It just means most people are going to look at the disappointing results and think that A) Wilson has contributed in part to those results and that B) Burke is probably going to be looking for someone to deliver better results.

Well, I wish they would word it like that, because I don't read it like that at all. Anyway, it makes you wonder why firing guys comes up so fast, as we've been discussing the demise of Wilson for so long, while other NHL coaches, can miss the playoffs and hold down their job, seemingly forever in one organization, through many changes.

I'm not disagreeing with you on your above points really at all here, I just wish they talked about the whole situation, rather than how it comes off.

 

[Kin]

Honestly, I think that's more you being defensive than anything. The little blurb there from Brophy mentions that the team's been talent poor but just then goes on to state facts. Wilson being on the hot seat, fairly or unfairly, is a pretty indisputable truth. As I said, the lack of an extension makes that pretty clear.

It would be ridiculous, in an article about coaches on the hot seat, to start talking about Brian Burke or Francois Beauchemin. It was about Ron Wilson, it discussed Wilson and his failings and summed up his situation.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Honestly, I think that's more you being defensive than anything.

Probably. I'm not against a change if that is what's best for the team, I just don't think the last three years were all Ron Wilson's fault and that he should only be judged on last year and most certainly what he does this year.

I guess sometimes I don't like the sense of urgency in Leafs Nation, like when the cup absence of so long gets blamed on current management or ownership and the like. You still have to develop the new pieces that come into an organization and that takes time.

 

[Kin]

Probably. I'm not against a change if that is what's best for the team, I just don't think the last three years were all Ron Wilson's fault and that he should only be judged on last year and most certainly what he does this year.

I get that. You've said it repeatedly. Nobody in the world is taking the opposing position.

I guess sometimes I don't like the sense of urgency in Leafs Nation, like when the cup absence of so long gets blamed on current management or ownership and the like. You still have to develop the new pieces that come into an organization and that takes time.

If there is a sense of urgency right now, it was created by Burke and the moves/things he's done since taking over. I think that, when you make it pretty clear that you're not going with a traditional rebuild, you're not going to then be able to try and get people to judge your efforts on that basis.

 

[maplesyrup]

If we don't make the playoffs, Wilson is a goner. He just has to be - even if he's only partly to blame.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If we don't make the playoffs, Wilson is a goner. He just has to be - even if he's only partly to blame.

Well, like Brophy says, you could make the case, but in the end, it's just about playoff appearances.

 

[Kin]

If Wilson goes 0-4 for making the playoffs, the GM can't very well justify firing all the players again and say that's it because he's effectively fired about 50 players (two full rosters) already. At some point, the coach has to be accountable that he didn't get more than the sum of the parts out of his opportunities.

Burke is running out of chances himself. I thought his retooling direction was a poor choice but beyond that, I don't think he's done that bad of a job. He's probably got a coaching change left and if he goes 0-5, he's probably unemployed. If he stays with Wilson and goes 0-5, he's definitely unemployed.

You know, I read that and I keep thinking that it would have been really good for the Leafs to go out and get a veteran goalie this summer. That's just a ton of responsibility to put on Reimer's shoulders. A mediocre year on his part could see Wilson(almost certainly) and Burke(doubtfully) gone.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

If their is a sense of urgency right now, it was created by Burke and the moves/things he's done since taking over. I think that, when you make it pretty clear that you're not going with a traditional rebuild, you're not going to then be able to try and get people to judge your efforts on that basis.

I'm not really wanting to go back and forth about this comment, but why does it have to be a "traditional rebuild" or a retool? Can't the manager just do things the way he feels is right and change pace if the market doesn't play along, the way Burke changed pace, mid-flight?

Personally, I liked that Burke didn't do things the same old way and tried something different. I think he's gotten to the same point in two less years, the way I see it.

 

[Kin]

I'm not really wanting to go back and forth about this comment, but why does it have to be a "traditional rebuild" or a retool? Can't the manager just do things the way he feels is right and change pace if the market doesn't play along, the way Burke changed pace, mid-flight?

A manager can do whatever he wants. The standards by which he's judged, though, are going to reflect the direction he's taken. If Burke himself says that he's looking at a three year build and then, three years later, the Leafs are still probably several years away from serious contention and have major holes on the club then that's going to be seen negatively by some.

Burke's plan relied on FA's being available but either didn't account for or didn't adequately emphasize that UFA's are tricky to gauge. Some very, very good players have been UFA's in recent years but Burke hasn't been able/willing to sign them. That's a big reason why the Leafs are where they are.

Like you, I'm glad that he's done what he could mid-stream to course correct. That said, I think it's fair if someone wants to look at the last three years as a wasted opportunity.

If he'd gone with a more traditional rebuild than the likelihood is that his progress would be judged differently. We'd be talking less about playoffs and more about how Tyler Seguin played last year and so on. You're free to prefer that he didn't go that route but I think that goes hand in hand with accepting a different set of expectations.

 

[Bender]

I'm not really wanting to go back and forth about this comment, but why does it have to be a "traditional rebuild" or a retool? Can't the manager just do things the way he feels is right and change pace if the market doesn't play along, the way Burke changed pace, mid-flight?

A manager can do whatever he wants. The standards by which he's judged, though, are going to reflect the direction he's taken. If Burke himself says that he's looking at a three year build and then, three years later, the Leafs are still probably several years away from serious contention and have major holes on the club then that's going to be seen negatively by some.

Burke's plan relied on FA's being available but either didn't account for or didn't adequately emphasize that UFA's are tricky to gauge. Some very, very good players have been UFA's in recent years but Burke hasn't been able/willing to sign them. That's a big reason why the Leafs are where they are.

Like you, I'm glad that he's done what he could mid-stream to course correct. That said, I think it's fair if someone wants to look at the last three years as a wasted opportunity.

If he'd gone with a more traditional rebuild than the likelihood is that his progress would be judged differently. We'd be talking less about playoffs and more about how Tyler Seguin played last year and so on. You're free to prefer that he didn't go that route but I think that goes hand in hand with accepting a different set of expectations.

Well, unless the team is completely gutted and the talent level was so poor that we would without question get a top 5 pick each year then I don't really think the traditional route would work, at least not during Burke's tenure. We could just as easily end up the Florida Panthers or Blue Jackets as we could the Penguins or Blackhawks.

I don't agree wholeheartedly with his direction, but there are risks to both avenues of development. I think the general public has been conditioned to think "Traditional Rebuild = Eventual Cup Champs."

 

[Kin]

Well, unless the team is completely gutted and the talent level was so poor that we would without question get a top 5 pick each year then I don't really think the traditional route would work, at least not during Burke's tenure. We could just as easily end up the Florida Panthers or Blue Jackets as we could the Penguins or Blackhawks.

It's an argument that's been had a million times here but I think that if you honestly believe that the Leafs, if they'd gone that route, could easily have wound up like the Florida Panthers or Columbus Blue Jackets, two teams that never had the Leafs ability to invest in scouting, development, coaching and UFA's when the time comes, then it says something way more negative about Brian Burke than I ever would. I honestly don't think there's a chance in the world that a Brian Burke team with lots of high draft picks and the money to invest in them would wind up that bad.

 

[moon111]

I don't think Wilson and Burke have deviated from their goal of making a successful playoff team.  They could of make a trap-type team much sooner and with better results, but it could be argued that formula would only go so far.  I'd be really interested in seeing the Leafs in the playoffs.  I wouldn't want to be playing against Komisarek, Schenn, Phaneuf, Aulie for 7 games straight. 

 

[Scot4bz]

No matter what happens I can't bring myself to be a Ron Wilson supporter. I have never liked him as a player or a coach. I only hope it doesn't take digging a hole so deep that we can't get out of it to see him sent packing.
At least Acton has finally departed........

 

[Tigger]

Taken with a pretty big grain of salt but if the Leafs won the cup you wouldn't support Wilson?