The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Zee]

No. If they lose that many, they'd be out of a playoff position. They would have burnt their good start. Their PK would still likely be 30th (again) and their GAA is 28th now. The roster has been turned over a couple of times since he got here. At some point, you've got to give someone else a shot. Losing 5-7 in a row would have Wilson pretty close to that point.

I think we'll find out soon enough.  We'll be playing  a St. Louis team with a TA-DA new coach.  Love how other organizations are quick to make changes but Burke stands by his man through thick and thin.  Loss #3 in a row coming up...

And the fans seemed pretty happy about that change judging by the comments here:

http://www.stlouisgametime.com/2011/11/6/2543282/blues-fire-davis-payne-and-hire-ken-hitchcock

The fans will come around when the Blues record improves.

I wonder what St. Louis fans think now with Hitchcock?  Since he took over, the Blues are 13-2-4.

 

[cw]

lc9, I think you overstate it when you say they have no passion or energy.  They display it most every game -- and they are in most every game.

I do think, though, that there's a kernel of truth in what you say.  I am a longtime Wilson detractor, but all that aside I truly do believe they don't play as hard for him as they might.  The failure to get the puck out against VAN was due in part to the Canucks' skill (the Sedin "sisters"  : as some would have it, were dominant) but also due to our not winning battles along the boards.  That's sheer determination and I don't think they have it.  Would they, for another coach?  It would be an interesting experiment, wouldn't it? 

I'm in some agreement with this. I don't think one can turn effort on and off depending on the zone. But I also don't think Ron Wilson has ever attained in his four years getting to the soul of his club - to stir the deepest passions of the players the way someone like Pat Quinn could and did in Toronto.

I've never seen a coach able to do that every game. I've never seen a player capable of it in an 82 game schedule. It takes something out of a club and it's players so they can't do it every game. But periodically, Quinn could tap into the deepest passions of his players and get a win over a more talented club through sheer will when maybe they didn't deserve it otherwise.

In those terms, I would agree. I've never seen  Wilson accomplish that in his time here. If that's what folks mean by passion then yes, they have not achieved that. Some coaches can't do it or don't operate that way. I don't recall seeing passion/will to win at a high level with any of Wilson's clubs.

But I would balance that some by saying his team hasn't quit on him and they do try - even when they get down.

 

[rdowdall]

lc9, I think you overstate it when you say they have no passion or energy.  They display it most every game -- and they are in most every game.

I do think, though, that there's a kernel of truth in what you say.  I am a longtime Wilson detractor, but all that aside I truly do believe they don't play as hard for him as they might.  The failure to get the puck out against VAN was due in part to the Canucks' skill (the Sedin "sisters"  : as some would have it, were dominant) but also due to our not winning battles along the boards.  That's sheer determination and I don't think they have it.  Would they, for another coach?  It would be an interesting experiment, wouldn't it? 

I'm in some agreement with this. I don't think one can turn effort on and off depending on the zone. But I also don't think Ron Wilson has ever attained in his four years getting to the soul of his club - to stir the deepest passions of the players the way someone like Pat Quinn could and did in Toronto.

I've never seen a coach able to do that every game. I've never seen a player capable of it in an 82 game schedule. It takes something out of a club and it's players so they can't do it every game. But periodically, Quinn could tap into the deepest passions of his players and get a win over a more talented club through sheer will when maybe they didn't deserve it otherwise.

In those terms, I would agree. I've never seen  Wilson accomplish that in his time here. If that's what folks mean by passion then yes, they have not achieved that. Some coaches can't do it or don't operate that way. I don't recall seeing passion/will to win at a high level with any of Wilson's clubs.

But I would balance that some by saying his team hasn't quit on him and they do try - even when they get down.

I think that speaks to the type of coach. Quinn was a great motivator, but not much of an "X's and O's" guy.  Wilson seems to be more of an "X's and O's" guy with a little bit of motivator thrown in.  I've heard it said that Wilson is a really smart coach.  If he is, I just don't understand why they can't fix the PK.  Maybe the game has passed Ron by. 

 

[lc9]

I really don't think players can turn it on and off depending on which zone they're in. "Oh, I'm in the D zone so I'll stop trying and caring now until someone gets me the puck in the offensive zone"

I've been around enough hockey to know a lot of players, starting as kids, play this way.  Heavy concentration and maximum effort in the offensive end, and just the opposite in the d-zone.  I feel this way about the Leafs by watching their wingers, they are too high on the half boards waiting for a break out of the zone, which is why the middle of the ice is always open.

To me, their defensive troubles seem closer to a lack of knowing how to do so as a team, confusion, bad decisions in coverage yanking themselves out of position, lack of confidence/deer in the headlights syndrome/fear of making a mistake, poor execution, etc. I don't see that as a lack of desire to try or a lack of passion. Confused teams lacking confidence can look like they're not making an effort but it isn't because they don't care or won't make the effort. The uncertainty, confusion or lack of confidence breeds things like hesitation and leaves them standing around because they're not sure what to do and fear making a mistake.

I have a heard time thinking NHL players can't play capable defense.  Stay your lane and don't get caught out of position, the leafs are horrendous in both areas.  Which means they are cheating for the odd man rush which can imply a lazy defensive mentality. 

 

[sniper55]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

 

[lc9]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

It's not exactly about right now when you fire a coach.  When the coach is fired the assumption should be that management felt that the goal of winning it all can't be achieved under the current coach.

What I want from a new coach is to see improvement in the biggest area of need...PK and defense.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

Of all the teams with new coaches, the Capitals is one team I expect to make the playoffs - they have too much talent not to make the playoffs.  Montreal is a bubble team for me.  I think habs fans and media would rake the entire organization over the coals if they missed the playoffs.  To avoid that, I expect to see some trades to improve their team.  As for Anaheim and Carolina, they are not that good to begin with and a coaching change will not help those teams get into the playoffs, but it will create a new climate and culture and help prepare those teams for next season.

What I would like the result to be with a coaching change with the Leafs is for the first 5 or 10 games to be a familiarity stage in which the players become accustomed to the new coach's system, and for the coach to familiarize himself with the players on the roster.  After that, I expect to see a gradual improvement in the PK, and for the Leafs to become more physical and agressive defensively.

 

[Zee]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

It's not exactly about right now when you fire a coach.  When the coach is fired the assumption should be that management felt that the goal of winning it all can't be achieved under the current coach.

What I want from a new coach is to see improvement in the biggest area of need...PK and defense.

Hitchcock would have solved the PK and D issues. Leafs might have turned into a more boring team but I doubt our PK would be at 76%

 

[cw]

I really don't think players can turn it on and off depending on which zone they're in. "Oh, I'm in the D zone so I'll stop trying and caring now until someone gets me the puck in the offensive zone"

I've been around enough hockey to know a lot of players, starting as kids, play this way.  Heavy concentration and maximum effort in the offensive end, and just the opposite in the d-zone.  I feel this way about the Leafs by watching their wingers, they are too high on the half boards waiting for a break out of the zone, which is why the middle of the ice is always open.

To me, their defensive troubles seem closer to a lack of knowing how to do so as a team, confusion, bad decisions in coverage yanking themselves out of position, lack of confidence/deer in the headlights syndrome/fear of making a mistake, poor execution, etc. I don't see that as a lack of desire to try or a lack of passion. Confused teams lacking confidence can look like they're not making an effort but it isn't because they don't care or won't make the effort. The uncertainty, confusion or lack of confidence breeds things like hesitation and leaves them standing around because they're not sure what to do and fear making a mistake.

I have a heard time thinking NHL players can't play capable defense.  Stay your lane and don't get caught out of position, the leafs are horrendous in both areas.  Which means they are cheating for the odd man rush which can imply a lazy defensive mentality.

If they're down, by two goals or the clock is ticking down, I don't have a problem with it. It's similar to pinching decisions by the D or riskier passes made when trying to get back into the game or tie it up. At some point, the team has to take some chances to try to score in those situations. So when we observe it, an important consideration to make is to whether it's a bad thing to do in terms of what the team is trying to do or needs to do at a particular moment in time in a game.

Some of their defensive woes in their recent games relate to just that. I've seen it several times. They're behind. They take a gamble. Gamble doesn't work out. Puck is turned over and comes back the other way into their net.

One thing about Wilson: if his players mess around too much cheating like that, he'll bench them right then and there. So there are real some limits here as to how much of it is going on without Wilson's blessing. He's had a hair trigger for benching mid game all season long.

If they're ahead or tied, it's probably or usually a wrong thing to do. I have seen them make that mistake but not as much as it might be perceived because media tend to ignore the circumstances when criticizing defensive play.

In part, it seems a result of the quick transition that Wilson is trying to achieve. It might be where they think they can find a seam to get out of the zone - I'm not sure as the camera angles we see are lousy to make the analysis. Pat Quinn often positioned his wingers in very the same place. The guys haven't always done that with Wilson - standing along the wall north of the half boards. I've seen it more frequently recently and don't know why. I've seen it enough to suspect it's systemic to help them generate more speed through the neutral zone against clubs that were jamming them up there.

I think they've been more effective generally when the players come back deeper, and make the short passes to advance it out of the zone and then try to spring someone who has gotten up to full speed.

So I'm not sure where to place the blame for that - with the coach or the players. Some responsibility probably belongs to both. But I don't think it's largely due to being lazy or not making an effort.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

this thread is so manic

 

[ZBBM]

The downward drift continues.  If I were Wilson, I'd ask -- no, I'd beg -- Santa for an early Xmas gift in the form of a couple of wins.

 

[Hank Yarbo]

Hitchcock would have solved the PK and D issues. Leafs might have turned into a more boring team but I doubt our PK would be at 76%

I'm told by MLSE and its representitives that I wouldn't like a boring trap style of game as a Leaf fan. I'm told I'd prefer fast paced, entertaining games that lead to losses and lack of playoff appearances.

Glad they know what's best for me  :

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Burke will not fire Wilson. He will add another 3 assistant GMs to the front office.

 

[lc9]

Its clear, as it has been since around end of year 2, that Wilson needs to go.  He has no clue how to create a defensive structure or how to create a useful penalty kill.  I honestly can't believe he has as many wins in the NHL as he does with how poorly his teams play defense. 

 

[Optimus Reimer]

The downward drift continues.  If I were Wilson, I'd ask -- no, I'd beg -- Santa for an early Xmas gift in the form of a couple of wins.

I would be asking for a road map, instructions and directions on how to get the puck out of their zone, especially during a PK.

 

[Tigger]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

It's not exactly about right now when you fire a coach.  When the coach is fired the assumption should be that management felt that the goal of winning it all can't be achieved under the current coach.

That doesn't compute to me at all.

Wilson himself has said he wouldn't be the coach when the team was truly ready to compete, fwiw.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

For those that want Wilson fired and are hoping for some winning streak under some new coach, that's not guaranteed to happen. St. Louis is doing well after hiring Hitchcock, but what about other teams that fired coaches this season. Those coaching changes sure are working wonders in Anaheim, Washington, and Carolina...

It's not exactly about right now when you fire a coach.  When the coach is fired the assumption should be that management felt that the goal of winning it all can't be achieved under the current coach.

That doesn't compute to me at all.

Wilson himself has said he wouldn't be the coach when the team was truly ready to compete, fwiw.

he did?

 

[Tigger]

he did?

Yep, I can't recall the original interview source but Friedman quoted it here last year...

Go back to September 2008. Burke was still in Anaheim as Ron Wilson began his first training camp in Toronto. If you asked anyone across the league about the Maple Leafs, they would have told you, ?It will take six-to-eight years.? Even Wilson said once, ?I won?t be the coach when this team is really ready to win.?

Funny, what Elliotte says right before that, as of Jan 11 last year I totally agree with...

"But mentioning the word ?playoffs? anywhere in the same sentence as ?Maple Leafs? this season was an enormous mistake. All it did was create expectation on a team that really didn?t need it. Now, Burke and the organization are labelled a failure because they?re 28th overall.

This is not a failure. It?s exactly where they should be."

 

[Tigger]

Ha, I decided to read the rest of that article, if Wilson had done what Tippett did here he would have had his hide removed, his heart eaten and his name castigated JFJ style...

"Ed Jovanovski was ejected for elbowing John Tavares with 17 seconds left in the first period of Phoenix?s game in Long Island. As the second period began, coach Dave Tippett decided not to put anyone in the penalty box. Incredibly, there were no whistles for the first 7:35 of the second, meaning the Coyotes had to play a man short for three extra minutes. Exhausted, they took two penalties, and the Islanders scored twice in a 5-4 win. (Credit to Dwayne Roloson, who prevented three icings so Phoenix couldn?t even get a quick stoppage.)"

 

[Strangelove]

he did?

Yep, I can't recall the original interview source but Friedman quoted it here last year...

Go back to September 2008. Burke was still in Anaheim as Ron Wilson began his first training camp in Toronto. If you asked anyone across the league about the Maple Leafs, they would have told you, ?It will take six-to-eight years.? Even Wilson said once, ?I won?t be the coach when this team is really ready to win.?

Funny, what Elliotte says right before that, as of Jan 11 last year I totally agree with...

"But mentioning the word ?playoffs? anywhere in the same sentence as ?Maple Leafs? this season was an enormous mistake. All it did was create expectation on a team that really didn?t need it. Now, Burke and the organization are labelled a failure because they?re 28th overall.

This is not a failure. It?s exactly where they should be."

Quite a lot has changed on paper since that training camp, and I don't really see the relevance of bringing it up.  If you really think it's alright for the Leafs to miss the playoffs for 6-8 years just because Wilson may or may not have said something to that effect several years ago, then you set the bar far lower than I'm comfortable with as a fan.  Fact is, the Leafs have failed to improve over Ron's tenure in virtually every aspect of their game, and that shouldn't be acceptable to anyone.