The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Kin]

In my mind, Eakins with the Marlies over ~ twice as many games with the little club is going to do much more for the overall development of the organization than Eakins with the big club for ~ half the time.

There's just as little a basis for that. Eakins has spent a lot of time with that club. What he has to teach, he's probably already taught. I doubt he's been holding anything out for the last stretch drive.

On the flip side, most of the guys on the big club haven't been coached by Eakins and making an actual changing of the guard at the top, as opposed to promoting Gordon, might inspire a tear.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not the team should promote Eakins necessarily, I just don't think the nebulous value of a deep Calder Cup run or the frankly crazy notion that a NHL team shouldn't care about developing the guys on it's roster should be the rationale.

 

[Bates]

Too late??  We are 4 points out of the play-offs with almost 20 games to go.  We are certainly closer than Anahiem or Carolina were when they made the change.

 

[cabber24]

That comment Wilson said "we did nothing at the deadline" pissed me off! Can he not just stand there, just once, and take some blame. He's a piece of #@$% and needs to go. I'm so awesome... nothing is my fault... look what I have to work with... shut your face and get the $%@# out of town! He's such a dick!

 

[Erndog]

How's Randy Carlyles relationship with Perry/Getzlaf?

I'm asking because maybe he could influence them to sign next summer much like Torts in NY with Brad Richards.

 

[cabber24]

How's Randy Carlyles relationship with Perry/Getzlaf?

I'm asking because maybe he could influence them to sign next summer much like Torts in NY with Brad Richards.

Don't worry the Leafs 342 members of their management/scout team got things under control. Have you not noticed?

 

[maplesyrup]

Too late??  We are 4 points out of the play-offs with almost 20 games to go.  We are certainly closer than Anahiem or Carolina were when they made the change.

I think we need to win 13/14 of the next 18... Just not happening but I admire your hutzpah.

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't see Burke going from "I haven't even considered firing Wilson" just prior to the deadline (and in the wake of giving him an extension as a Christmas present) to firing him after one more game.

I think Ron is going down with the ship and will get shown the door in the spring.

This is shaping up to be one of the more spectacular crash and burns in Leafs history.

Carlyle is probably at the top of Burke's list for replacements. As Eakins recently said, it doesn't matter what the media has to say about coaches - it matters what the people who make hiring decisions for coaches think.

Yup, yup and yup.

Carlyle is almost certainly the guy.. I think he would be the right choice too, unless Quenneville gets fired too (Hawks in similar freefall to Leafs).  I think this team needs a non nonsense butt kicker of a coach to come in. 

I do think Wilson has done a lot of good especially with many of the kids, and Kessel/Lupul have clearly become better players under him, but seems unable to get this team over whatever it is that bogs them down when they start losing.  Seems like they are almost stuck in a perennial mental state of "well we are still taking every mistake as a way to learn and get better and these things happen" kind of state.. almost like an overly patient coach who doesn't put his foot down and say its time to stop "learning" and start executing night after night. 

It doesn't help the alternate captains he appointed are either not playing at all or struggling big time on their own, so the on-ice leadership all falls to Phaneuf, which is really not enough. I doubt that excuse saves Wilson, but it is a factor in all that has gone down.

 

[L K]

In my mind, Eakins with the Marlies over ~ twice as many games with the little club is going to do much more for the overall development of the organization than Eakins with the big club for ~ half the time.

There's just as little a basis for that. Eakins has spent a lot of time with that club. What he has to teach, he's probably already taught. I doubt he's been holding anything out for the last stretch drive.

On the flip side, most of the guys on the big club haven't been coached by Eakins and making an actual changing of the guard at the top, as opposed to promoting Gordon, might inspire a tear.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not the team should promote Eakins necessarily, I just don't think the nebulous value of a deep Calder Cup run or the frankly crazy notion that a NHL team shouldn't care about developing the guys on it's roster should be the rationale.

I really don't understand Burke's assertion that he doesn't want to make the playoffs just to have the team beaten up and down.  My problem with that of course is that, what if this team DOES get beaten from here to sundown?  I want to see whether Kessel can actually score in the congested style of playoff hockey.  I know he did it a few years ago when he wasn't the #1 option in Boston, but what happens when the #1 shutdown line is focused on him and the hooking and holding get taken to another level?  Can he fight through any of that?

Are Kulemin/Schenn/Grabovski/Gunnarsson/Franson/Gardiner/Bozak going to step up their games in the postseason.  I think those are legitimate questions to ask and I don't think that a 4-6 game elimination in the 1st round is going to hurt the organization if we get some of these guys a taste of playoff action. 

Losing sucks.  But getting a taste of what it is like to be in the postseason could be a huge motivator for the guys who will still be on the team next year to work hard in the offseason. 

The flip side, is that I like the idea of continuity for the Marlies just to see how Eakins handles coaching in the postseason (even if it is just the AHL) and to see if Kadri and Colborne can elevate their games to the next level and kind of force Burke's hand in the offseason.

 

[Kin]

Are Kulemin/Schenn/Grabovski/Gunnarsson/Franson/Gardiner/Bozak going to step up their games in the postseason.  I think those are legitimate questions to ask and I don't think that a 4-6 game elimination in the 1st round is going to hurt the organization if we get some of these guys a taste of playoff action.

I agree completely. Making the playoffs is an important part of evaluating a team. The idea that there's no value in making the playoffs only to see an early exit is just one of the many Burke statements that strike me as entirely counter-intuitive.

 

[cw]

How's Randy Carlyles relationship with Perry/Getzlaf?

I'm asking because maybe he could influence them to sign next summer much like Torts in NY with Brad Richards.

Carlyle is not reputed to be a players coach. He's regarded more as a task master. From the media reports I got from his demise in Anaheim, he wasn't a very popular figure with the players. Specifically, he may have had a problem with Getzlaf - I'm vague on that.

Part of the attraction to bringing in Boudreau was that he is known as a players coach and they thought that type of change in coaching style might help the Ducks (which it appears to have done).

But I could see Burke bringing in Carlyle to help knock the guys with weak stomachs off his roster.

 

[Corn Flake]

Too late??  We are 4 points out of the play-offs with almost 20 games to go.  We are certainly closer than Anahiem or Carolina were when they made the change.

A big part of it is the difference being the Leafs are a team who were in it all year until about 2 weeks ago.  Its far easier to make a change when you are a bottom feeder vs. what we have here.

 

[cw]

I don't see Burke going from "I haven't even considered firing Wilson" just prior to the deadline (and in the wake of giving him an extension as a Christmas present) to firing him after one more game.

I think Ron is going down with the ship and will get shown the door in the spring.

This is shaping up to be one of the more spectacular crash and burns in Leafs history.

Carlyle is probably at the top of Burke's list for replacements. As Eakins recently said, it doesn't matter what the media has to say about coaches - it matters what the people who make hiring decisions for coaches think.

Yup, yup and yup.

Carlyle is almost certainly the guy.. I think he would be the right choice too, unless Quenneville gets fired too (Hawks in similar freefall to Leafs).  I think this team needs a non nonsense butt kicker of a coach to come in. 

I do think Wilson has done a lot of good especially with many of the kids, and Kessel/Lupul have clearly become better players under him, but seems unable to get this team over whatever it is that bogs them down when they start losing.  Seems like they are almost stuck in a perennial mental state of "well we are still taking every mistake as a way to learn and get better and these things happen" kind of state.. almost like an overly patient coach who doesn't put his foot down and say its time to stop "learning" and start executing night after night. 

It doesn't help the alternate captains he appointed are either not playing at all or struggling big time on their own, so the on-ice leadership all falls to Phaneuf, which is really not enough. I doubt that excuse saves Wilson, but it is a factor in all that has gone down.

Although I've never been a big fan of Wilson's and wanted him fired last spring, it's hardly all his fault.

Collectively, most felt that their playoff aspirations would rise and fall with the goaltending. They got backup quality starting goaltending. Period. Hopefully Burke doesn't still have Cloutier-itis when he addresses that this summer. In fairness, both Gus & Reimer are pretty inexperienced NHL goalies.

Armstrong & Komisarek, two assistant captains have been duds. Add in Lombardi and $11 mil of the veteran roster has contributed little. Meanwhile, they carried boat anchors Rosehill & Orr for much of the season. Dupuis was a failure to help the PK.

Franson, Schenn, Gardiner & Aulie (for the time he was up) represent young/inexperienced defensively suspect dmen right now. Phaneuf & Liles are both unreliable defensively.

I still think that Wilson's coaching effort this season to date has been his best in Toronto. He tried an awful lot of things to try to get the most out of them. The fact remains that he had marginal talent to work with for much of the season.

Changing the coach isn't going to correct those issues though it could help the younger guys to get a different NHL coaching experience to strengthen their overall games.

 

[bustaheims]

Too late??  We are 4 points out of the play-offs with almost 20 games to go.  We are certainly closer than Anahiem or Carolina were when they made the change.

Well, since it really generally takes 8-10 games for a new coach to truly have an impact, it's too late. Anaheim was still awful for a full month after replacing Carlyle with Boudreau. Washington was a .500 team for the month after hiring Hunter. Carolina lost 8 of their next 10 after hiring Muller. Really, the only coach in the recent memory that had instant success with their new team while being a mid-season replacement has been Hitchcock. Even last season, when the Devils turned thing around under Lemaire, they started off by going 1-7.

 

[gunnar36]

the odds of Burke firing Wilson this season are the same odds as him admitting he lost on the Kessel trade

Burke does not own up to mistakes and in letting Wilson go after recently giving him a contract extension does not make himself look very credible.

 

[Bates]

So we should let the ship sink under Wilson instead of giving new guy a free chance to evaluate what he has for next year and even give the players a chance to see what will be expected from new coach.  It's like a new guy would have 2 training camps.

 

[cw]

Are Kulemin/Schenn/Grabovski/Gunnarsson/Franson/Gardiner/Bozak going to step up their games in the postseason.  I think those are legitimate questions to ask and I don't think that a 4-6 game elimination in the 1st round is going to hurt the organization if we get some of these guys a taste of playoff action.

I agree completely. Making the playoffs is an important part of evaluating a team. The idea that there's no value in making the playoffs only to see an early exit is just one of the many Burke statements that strike me as entirely counter-intuitive.

I don't think Burke has dismissed the value of playoff experience. He wants them to make the playoffs. His statements on this have been offered in the context that he's just unwilling to spend young assets to attain that kind of experience.

Right now, I don't think they've developed a core to go forward with. There are still too many talent holes. I think they have a ways to go to improve the roster. So I think the playoff experience value is more limited because a bunch of these guys won't be around whenever they get good enough to contend. At this particular point in time, I think it's fair to question whether they'll be good enough to qualify next spring because I don't see grand solutions for what ails them on the UFA market. So even if they bounced back and snuck in, I don't have complete confidence yet that they'd be assured of a repeat appearance next season. And therefore, I wonder just how valuable a playoff appearance would be at this point in time. It wouldn't hurt for sure but I'm not wringing my hands that it's a major experience lost.

 

[Corn Flake]

Although I've never been a big fan of Wilson's and wanted him fired last spring, it's hardly all his fault.

Collectively, most felt that their playoff aspirations would rise and fall with the goaltending. They got backup quality starting goaltending. Period. Hopefully Burke doesn't still have Cloutier-itis when he addresses that this summer. In fairness, both Gus & Reimer are pretty inexperienced NHL goalies.

Armstrong & Komisarek, two assistant captains have been duds. Add in Lombardi and $11 mil of the veteran roster has contributed little. Meanwhile, they carried boat anchors Rosehill & Orr for much of the season. Dupuis was a failure to help the PK.

Franson, Schenn, Gardiner & Aulie (for the time he was up) represent young/inexperienced defensively suspect dmen right now. Phaneuf & Liles are both unreliable defensively.

I still think that Wilson's coaching effort this season to date has been his best in Toronto. He tried an awful lot of things to try to get the most out of them. The fact remains that he had marginal talent to work with for much of the season.

Changing the coach isn't going to correct those issues though it could help the younger guys to get a different NHL coaching experience to strengthen their overall games.

Agreed that Burke's history with goaltending seems to have come back to haunt him again, and going forward makes me leery of where he will go.  I'm 100% convinced that the mistake was not getting a proven vet to back up Reimer and keep him encouraged and calm. I fully believe Jiggy did that for him last year and was a huge reason why Reimer was so steady. He would have bad games but bounced right back.  You could always see Jiggy coaching him at breaks.. made a huge impact and burned them this year. 

Now in fairness, Reimer looked like he was on his way to a stellar season before the Gionta headshot which I think gets downplayed or ignored when you look at how it derailed his season.  Not many goalies can take 6 weeks off to recover from that and come back 100%.  He never did.

So you have struggling Reimer and Gus looking for consistency ... not the right combo. 

For all the detest towards Wilson, he hasn't "lost" the team. They have not gone into quit mode on him even though huge mistakes such as the first two goals last night are happening everywhere.  He just can't get them to play consistently and can't seem to calm them down when things get rough.  I think he's a player's coach but what they need now for the next chapter is less of that and more of a ball buster.

Lombardi... I really don't think they figured him in the plans at all. He was supposed to be concussed indefinitely but magically recovered to start the year, but doesn't seem to have his game together, which when you miss a year is kind of fair.  Dupuis over Brent was an awful choice.

 

[cw]

Now in fairness, Reimer looked like he was on his way to a stellar season before the Gionta headshot which I think gets downplayed or ignored when you look at how it derailed his season.  Not many goalies can take 6 weeks off to recover from that and come back 100%.  He never did.

I didn't think Reimer looked that hot in preseason or during those early games. He let in some soft/stoppable goals more that were not characteristic of his '11 season. The team won in those early games but I thought they kind of won more in spite of Reimer being kind of mediocre.

 

[cw]

Too late??  We are 4 points out of the play-offs with almost 20 games to go.  We are certainly closer than Anahiem or Carolina were when they made the change.

Well, since it really generally takes 8-10 games for a new coach to truly have an impact, it's too late. Anaheim was still awful for a full month after replacing Carlyle with Boudreau. Washington was a .500 team for the month after hiring Hunter. Carolina lost 8 of their next 10 after hiring Muller. Really, the only coach in the recent memory that had instant success with their new team while being a mid-season replacement has been Hitchcock. Even last season, when the Devils turned thing around under Lemaire, they started off by going 1-7.

I think you're right.

I also don't think Burke is even close to making a coaching change at this point.

But ignoring that, given where they are, it's still a Hail Mary I would consider if they want to make the playoffs because it's hard to see them substantially changing in the near term. So I can understand why a bunch of fans are calling for his head. I won't shed a tear when Ron is shown the door.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Are Kulemin/Schenn/Grabovski/Gunnarsson/Franson/Gardiner/Bozak going to step up their games in the postseason.  I think those are legitimate questions to ask and I don't think that a 4-6 game elimination in the 1st round is going to hurt the organization if we get some of these guys a taste of playoff action.

I agree completely. Making the playoffs is an important part of evaluating a team. The idea that there's no value in making the playoffs only to see an early exit is just one of the many Burke statements that strike me as entirely counter-intuitive.

You're very much distorting the intent of what he said.  Burke merely suggested he didn't see value in making bad long-term trades merely to give a mediocre team a short-term boost to scrape into the playoffs and get their asses handed to them in the first round.