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TRADE DAY: Sandin / Engvall / Schenn

Dappleganger said:
I tried to clarify. Sorry.

People don't moan about the trading Schenn away cuz they got JVR in return.

People do moan about trading Stralman away cuz they got diddly squat in return for him.

I think that's why people feel the way they do about Stralman's departure from the Leafs.
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You've lost me somewhat. So your point was that fans like it when trades turn out good but they don't like it when trades turn out bad?
 
cw said:
I do not think Dubas is betting heavily on it. But Dubas attending his final game less than a week before the deadline suggests they are very interested in signing him promptly and checking him out for these playoffs.
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I dunno. I chalk that up more to due diligence than any real eagerness to get him into the lineup. He's the team's top prospect, it's fairly normal for the GM to check in on him near the end of his regular season to see how he's progressed, have a chat with him about his future, etc. Attaching extra meaning to it feels more like trying to create a narrative more than anything else.
 
herman said:
SANDIN:
Dubas has done Sandin a favour and got him more playing time (the point of contention in his contract hold up). That's all it is. The Capital's LD side is wide open and he'll get to play with someone like Carlson or Jensen or van Riemsdyk under almost no pressure to win (just feed Ovi's record chase). While Carlson is out injured and Gustafsson is gone, they have no more PP options. A bit of a trickier pass for a lefty to feed Ovechkin's office, but Sandin can figure it out.

For the Leafs, they've clearly indicated they can't wait for 100+ more games for Sandin to reach the level they need today. Rielly's re-signing and the myriad of motivations behind it include it taking too much time for Sandin to fill that spot (and maybe too much cap space while waiting).


ENGVALL:
Similar course in a front office favoured project (Marlies champ) that just ran out of reasonable time within their cap framework. You can get his on-ice results (in a different way + more) by paying less; Engvall had lots of chances to demonstrate he could take that opportunity but he just didn't. Maybe the best 4th line in the world can teach him how to forecheck more physically. Engvall has the body of Optimus Prime but unfortunately also has with the processor speed of a Pentium 2 paired with the instincts of a perimeter playmaker.


Overall:
I really liked both players, but the shine starts to wear off when they climb near 3M, which is what next contracts would've been hovering around. Like the Kapanen/Johnsson/Dermott trades, it feels like a small step back when viewing these moves in isolation, and pretty ruthless from Dubas, but he has created room to change the identity and complexion of the bottom half of the roster. More will to support the skill. We've seen Matthews get fired up from Simmonds or Matt Martin shenanigans; I don't recall anyone on the bench being particularly excited for Engvall's minutes.
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Pentium 2. Awesome Herman?
 
lamajama said:
herman said:
SANDIN:
Dubas has done Sandin a favour and got him more playing time (the point of contention in his contract hold up). That's all it is. The Capital's LD side is wide open and he'll get to play with someone like Carlson or Jensen or van Riemsdyk under almost no pressure to win (just feed Ovi's record chase). While Carlson is out injured and Gustafsson is gone, they have no more PP options. A bit of a trickier pass for a lefty to feed Ovechkin's office, but Sandin can figure it out.

For the Leafs, they've clearly indicated they can't wait for 100+ more games for Sandin to reach the level they need today. Rielly's re-signing and the myriad of motivations behind it include it taking too much time for Sandin to fill that spot (and maybe too much cap space while waiting).


ENGVALL:
Similar course in a front office favoured project (Marlies champ) that just ran out of reasonable time within their cap framework. You can get his on-ice results (in a different way + more) by paying less; Engvall had lots of chances to demonstrate he could take that opportunity but he just didn't. Maybe the best 4th line in the world can teach him how to forecheck more physically. Engvall has the body of Optimus Prime but unfortunately also has with the processor speed of a Pentium 2 paired with the instincts of a perimeter playmaker.


Overall:
I really liked both players, but the shine starts to wear off when they climb near 3M, which is what next contracts would've been hovering around. Like the Kapanen/Johnsson/Dermott trades, it feels like a small step back when viewing these moves in isolation, and pretty ruthless from Dubas, but he has created room to change the identity and complexion of the bottom half of the roster. More will to support the skill. We've seen Matthews get fired up from Simmonds or Matt Martin shenanigans; I don't recall anyone on the bench being particularly excited for Engvall's minutes.
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Pentium 2. Awesome Herman?
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That whole line was great lol
 
Nik said:
azzurri63 said:
Move some of this excess D, Kerfoot to Arizona along with 2023 1st and whatever for Chychrun and were good to go.
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If a lousy package like that was enough to land Chychrun he'd have gone long ago.
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Ottawa probably won't make the playoffs but are climbing up the standings.  We aren't outbidding them if they wanted to get in on it.
 
bustaheims said:
cw said:
I do not think Dubas is betting heavily on it. But Dubas attending his final game less than a week before the deadline suggests they are very interested in signing him promptly and checking him out for these playoffs.
Click to expand...

I dunno. I chalk that up more to due diligence than any real eagerness to get him into the lineup. He's the team's top prospect, it's fairly normal for the GM to check in on him near the end of his regular season to see how he's progressed, have a chat with him about his future, etc. Attaching extra meaning to it feels more like trying to create a narrative more than anything else.
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They offered to sign him last year. They kept a roster spot open for him. They pitched that he might make an impact on a Leafs playoff club - last year.
https://www.si.com/nhl/maple-leafs/prospects/matthew-knies-hopeful-to-join-maple-leafs-next-season-after-college-run
"Leafs GM Kyle Dubas presented Knies with the opportunity to make a big impact on a club ready to embark on another playoff run."

They've tried to be careful to not upset his NCAA development but they were interested in signing him and dangled getting him into the NHL playoffs last year. To me, that is more than mere due diligence to see how he's progressing. This year, with Dubas scorched earth trading to keep his job, I do not think he's leaving this stone unturned.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
herman said:
Sandin will be a pretty good defenseman, maybe needs some sheltering with offensive minutes. He thinks the game well, but needs a heavy safety net on his right side (see Rielly). Could we have gotten more in the trade? Maybe with more time, but there was like 1 day to clear cap for Murray's return from LTIR.
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Nah, there was no cap rush associated with the Sandin move. Engvall's trade cleared up more than enough cap space to have had both him and Schenn on the roster with enough room to take Murray off LTIR.
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I've pretty much said my piece on this but will add one thing more.  If Rielly weren't on the team, would they be trading Sandin?  Sandin may never be the offensive equal to Rielly in his prime, but Rielly no longer is and Sandin definitely has room to grow offensively (and is already far superior defensively).  (I freely admit I expected him to do better when he had the chance to lead the PP, but you know, small sample size.  He can dance the line, is a good passer, and has a better shot IMO than Rielly.)

So Dubas has made a declining offensive d-man who is notoriously weak defensively the highest paid defender on the team, for years.  I'm not saying he shouldn't have; at that time I don't think he could walk away from Rielly and anoint Sandin his replacement.  But that's where Sandin was trending, if they just let things continue instead of unloading him.

When you think about it, for the guy who's supposed to be the #1 defenseman Rielly sure creates a lot of partner headaches, aside from blocking a promising replacement.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I've pretty much said my piece on this but will add one thing more.  If Rielly weren't on the team, would they be trading Sandin?  Sandin may never be the offensive equal to Rielly in his prime, but Rielly no longer is and Sandin definitely has room to grow offensively (and is already far superior defensively).
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Rielly is 28 and coming off the 2nd highest scoring year of his career. He's obviously not having a great year but I don't know if I'd say with any certainty he's now on the down slope of his productive time as an offensive defenseman.
 
Nik said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I've pretty much said my piece on this but will add one thing more.  If Rielly weren't on the team, would they be trading Sandin?  Sandin may never be the offensive equal to Rielly in his prime, but Rielly no longer is and Sandin definitely has room to grow offensively (and is already far superior defensively).
Click to expand...

Rielly is 28 and coming off the 2nd highest scoring year of his career. He's obviously not having a great year but I don't know if I'd say with any certainty he's now on the down slope of his productive time as an offensive defenseman.
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I'm also not convinced Sandin is "far superior" defensively. He's more physical, but I never got the impression he actually impeded the other team in any meaningful way.
 
bustaheims said:
Nik said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I've pretty much said my piece on this but will add one thing more.  If Rielly weren't on the team, would they be trading Sandin?  Sandin may never be the offensive equal to Rielly in his prime, but Rielly no longer is and Sandin definitely has room to grow offensively (and is already far superior defensively).
Click to expand...

Rielly is 28 and coming off the 2nd highest scoring year of his career. He's obviously not having a great year but I don't know if I'd say with any certainty he's now on the down slope of his productive time as an offensive defenseman.
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I'm also not convinced Sandin is "far superior" defensively. He's more physical, but I never got the impression he actually impeded the other team in any meaningful way.
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Nik, you have a point but his season this year is at the very least a matter of concern.

Busta, I really don't know what to say.  I stand by my comment.
 
https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1631025079130939392
"Obviously it was a little sad," Nylander said of losing his friend and fellow Swede. "He had been living with me on-and-off throughout his time here. Sad to see him go. But it?s a bright future."

"I told him to look at it positively. It?ll be good for you, you?ll get a lot of ice time and stuff like that."
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Did you know Erik Gustafsson (defenseman) scored a hat trick against the Leafs this season? How many Leafs, let alone Leafs defensemen have hat tricks in their career?
https://twitter.com/NHL/status/1604304744645894144
 
[youtube]n1pZvo-VRHU[/youtube]
From a Feb 2022 game (3-2 loss)

Luke and his family are welcoming a new baby this week.

I didn't think much of his skillset while he was here (the game was getting faster), but he has adapted and rebuilt his game to be serviceable over the years, without ego. I hope we can get him a third Cup ring to go with his third kid.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Busta, I really don't know what to say.  I stand by my comment.
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I just don't see it, and the numbers I can find don't support your position, either.

Sandin and Rielly had a similar defensive impact, with Sandin facing a lesser quality of competition.
 
herman said:
https://twitter.com/stefen_rosner/status/1631318142369579010
Wow okay
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Barzal is out so why not. Some around here would've liked to see him get a shot higher up as well. Hope it works out for him. I've heard it many times he had the heaviest shot on the Leafs.
 
https://twitter.com/stickswing/status/1631357296256356353

Who the hell is that and what did they do with Pierre Engvall??
 
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