Useless Thread

[Kin]

Are you really surprised by how he reacted?

Am I surprised that this particular man reacted in this particular way? No, not especially. The only thing I'm trying to say is that this incident is further evidence that we've got a buffoonish oaf of a mayor as opposed to the narrative that it's evidence of a vindictive or invasive media.

Also, if im not mistaken, the land is owned by TRCA, which is not public.

It was described in the Star as Public land but if it's owned by the TRCA that description isn't, as you say, completely accurate. That said, buying land from the TRCA would still be something unusual for a Mayor to do and would be worthy of investigation.

 

[Spare Change]

Are you really surprised by how he reacted?

Am I surprised that this particular man reacted in this particular way? No, not especially. The only thing I'm trying to say is that this incident is further evidence that we've got a buffoonish oaf of a mayor as opposed to the narrative that it's evidence of a vindictive or invasive media.

The star has pretty aggressively pursued Rob Ford on every story, true or not. It started from false claims they made in 2010 and has just continued to spiral.  http://p.twimg.com/AsAjFKVCIAEYNoo.jpg  I hardly call that top notch journalism.

Also, if im not mistaken, the land is owned by TRCA, which is not public.

It was described in the Star as Public land but if it's owned by the TRCA that description isn't, as you say, completely accurate. That said, buying land from the TRCA would still be something unusual for a Mayor to do and would be worthy of investigation.

Its a minor plot of land, so that he can increase his home security. I can understand trying to justifying this as a story, but seriously, this is how the Star approaches it?

 

[Derk]

Frankly, neither side has a lot of credibility here. Ford flies off the handle really quickly, and the Star seems to enjoy "poking the bear" as was suggested above.

Given what has happened in the past, what happened was probably fairly predictable.

 

[Kin]

The star has pretty aggressively pursued Rob Ford on every story, true or not.

Good. What's the old line about the point of Journalism being to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable?

Its a minor plot of land, so that he can increase his home security. I can understand trying to justifying this as a story, but seriously, this is how the Star approaches it?

By sending someone out there to look at the land in broad daylight, while not trespassing on anyone's private property? Yes, that is how they approach investigative journalism and good for them.

 

[TML fan]

Why does the reporter need to see over Ford's fence to look at land that is not on Ford's property? Furthermore, who cares if he want to buy land? Are they going to stick an investigative journalist on him when he buys underwear? He has money, he wants to buy the land from a private owner. Who cares?

Lastly, everyone already knows he's a buffoonish oaf, so this is nothing new and once again, a non story. Ford losing his temper is as breaking a news story as Ford buying a cheeseburger.

 

[Kin]

Why does the reporter need to see over Ford's fence to look at land that is not on Ford's property?

The claim that Dale was standing on anything to look into Ford's backyard is one that Dale denies but, for the sake of argument, if Ford's position on buying the land is that purchasing the land would be in the interest of improving his home's security it's reasonable to, in a non invasive manner, see if that's true.

He has money, he wants to buy the land from a private owner. Who cares?

Calling the TRCA a private owner is just as misleading as saying they're public. They're a conservation authority established by and still regulated by provincial act. They're not in the habit of selling the land they own.

 

[Tigger]

I find it kind of funny that the reason for purchasing the land is for 'security' but won't really make his house any more 'secure' as far as this situation goes.

I'd like to see the videotape, maybe it could shed some light on the subject.

 

[TML fan]

Why does the reporter need to see over Ford's fence to look at land that is not on Ford's property?

The claim that Dale was standing on anything to look into Ford's backyard is one that Dale denies but, for the sake of argument, if Ford's position on buying the land is that purchasing the land would be in the interest of improving his home's security it's reasonable to, in a non invasive manner, see if that's true.

He has money, he wants to buy the land from a private owner. Who cares?

Calling the TRCA a private owner is just as misleading as saying they're public. They're a conservation authority established by and still regulated by provincial act. They're not in the habit of selling the land they own.

But they are in the habit of taking money. Regardless, it's not as if the Province, or the Feds for that matter, have never sold property to a private entity. It's also not lie he's buying Albion Hills or something. It's a piece of land only made significant by the Star's tabloid journalism. Show me that he's buying with public money and it might be something worth investigating.

 

[Tigger]

But they are in the habit of taking money, and he's offering them money.

The TRCA?s decision would be precedent-setting: The TRCA hasn't sold park land to a private citizen in at least 20 years, according to Jim Dillane, the authority's director of finance and business services.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/ford-proposal-to-buy-park-land-takes-step-forward/article2422974/?service=mobile

 

[Tigger]

Also from that article...

Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, the lone committee member to vote against studying the Fords? request, warned that granting it would ?open the floodgates? to every security-conscious homeowner whose property abuts TRCA land.

I can see why a journalist might be interested in that.

 

[Kin]

But they are in the habit of taking money.Regardless, it's not as if the Province, or the Feds for that matter, have never sold property to a private entity. It's also not lie he's buying Albion Hills or something. It's a piece of land only made significant by the Star's tabloid journalism. Show me that he's buying with public money and it might be something worth investigating.

As Tig points out, that's not really true. The TRCA almost never sells land to a private citizen.

So if you're a journalist who hears that a conservation authority has been positioned to make an almost unheard of sale to a private citizen and that citizen is the friggin' Mayor you think it's "tabloid journalism" to send out a reporter just to look at the land? Nobody wrote a story under the headline "Mayor pulls strings to get cheap land". Dale just went out and looked at it. Not everything that someone investigates leads somewhere.

 

[TML fan]

They've sold land before, just not in a long time. TRCA can sell its land to whoever it wants, or not as the case may be.

At the end of the day, Ford buying the land means absolutely nothing to the citizens of Toronto. Half the population of the city probably doesn't even know what the TRCA is. I think the length of time between land sales is pretty irrelevant. It's not like it's never happened. If Rob Ford bought a Betamax, would that be news too?

The point is that this is not a newsworthy story, and if it WASN'T Rob Ford, they likely wouldn't have sent anyone to investigate because nobody cares. Why should we care that it's Ford?

 

[Tigger]

I think the Councillor clearly disagrees with you and if it wasn't for the altercation it might not have made the news cycle in such a fashion. I don't see anything untoward with a journalist taking interest in this, unusual land deals are subject to investigation all the time.

 

[Kin]

They've sold land before, just not in a long time. TRCA can sell its land to whoever it wants, or not as the case may be.

Again, this is not true. The TRCA operates under a mandate from the Conservation Authorities Act. They are not a private organization that gets to make up their own rules as they choose.

At the end of the day, Ford buying the land means absolutely nothing to the citizens of Toronto. Half the population of the city probably doesn't even know what the TRCA is. I think the length of time between land sales is pretty irrelevant. It's not like it's never happened.

The point is that this is not a newsworthy story, and if it WASN'T Rob Ford, they likely wouldn't have sent anyone to investigate because nobody cares. Why should we care that it's Ford?

For starters, I disagree. Regardless of how informed the average citizen is about the TRCA is, I think that the idea of Conservational Authority selling public lands to private citizens is something that would be of public interest regardless of who that citizen is or the reasoning behind it. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, the TRCA aren't real estate developers and they don't have the mandate to just decide on a whim to sell land.

But that's not even the point. I don't think you're really getting what Tig and I are saying here. The merits of some fictitious story that the Star might have hypothetically printed had Dale found something newsworthy isn't really much of a subject of discussion. The issue is whether or not something extremely unusual, like the TRCA selling land to a private citizen who's also the Mayor, merits investigation. If, as you say, there was nothing to the story then there would be nothing to print.

But the implication that there's something improper in the extremely mild level of investigation into this matter(simply looking at the land in question) doesn't pass the smell test. Dale was well within his rights to be out there and looking into the matter.

 

[Tigger]

If I'm being fair I'll say this, I don't like Rob Ford but I recently went through a reverse version of this process. I just finished selling a lot off my land that is, by definition, a fairly normal transaction but subject to potential investigation by other interested parties.

During the process I had at least 8 occurrences of people stopping, taking pictures and moving on that I'm aware of. I didn't like it, I'm a hermit by habit but I understood the necessity of making things public and dealing. I'm also not a mayor of anything but my own castle.

Never once did it occur to me to take matters into my own hands, I never called the police.

When you make a decision to enter into a situation like this you take on the issues that follow in a level headed adult way, or, risk some sort of failure as a result.

Ford, and again I admit bias here as I don't like him, may have felt threatened but that doesn't absolve him of his actions. People who have interest in your situation are generally allowed to pursue that interest without having to worry about bodily harm or other such nonsense.

For argument, if it was me, had I found a person that I was familiar with taking such interest in what I was doing on public land near my property I'd probably ask them in and see what they were about, well, if I had nothing to hide, exploit or fear... seems fair too in spite of how bad a host I can be.

What I find absolutely fascinating is that a guy who's had death threats seems to think that running outside and confronting people in a rage is an answer to anything, and he's the mayor of a pretty big town.

 

[TML fan]

They've sold land before, just not in a long time. TRCA can sell its land to whoever it wants, or not as the case may be.

Again, this is not true. The TRCA operates under a mandate from the Conservation Authorities Act. They are not a private organization that gets to make up their own rules as they choose.

At the end of the day, Ford buying the land means absolutely nothing to the citizens of Toronto. Half the population of the city probably doesn't even know what the TRCA is. I think the length of time between land sales is pretty irrelevant. It's not like it's never happened.

The point is that this is not a newsworthy story, and if it WASN'T Rob Ford, they likely wouldn't have sent anyone to investigate because nobody cares. Why should we care that it's Ford?

For starters, I disagree. Regardless of how informed the average citizen is about the TRCA is, I think that the idea of Conservational Authority selling public lands to private citizens is something that would be of public interest regardless of who that citizen is or the reasoning behind it. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, the TRCA aren't real estate developers and they don't have the mandate to just decide on a whim to sell land.

But that's not even the point. I don't think you're really getting what Tig and I are saying here. The merits of some fictitious story that the Star might have hypothetically printed had Dale found something newsworthy isn't really much of a subject of discussion. The issue is whether or not something extremely unusual, like the TRCA selling land to a private citizen who's also the Mayor, merits investigation. If, as you say, there was nothing to the story then there would be nothing to print.

But the implication that there's something improper in the extremely mild level of investigation into this matter(simply looking at the land in question) doesn't pass the smell test. Dale was well within his rights to be out there and looking into the matter.

But what is there to investigate? I understand that you think people should care. I'm asking you WHY people should care, and WHY him being the Mayor makes it so much more worth investigating? I mean, if it came to light that he was using public funds or giving the TRCA some sort of benefit with the city, then maybe people should give a damn, but what Ford does in his personal time is his own business and doesn't reflect one bit on the job he does as the Mayor.

We have already established the fact that the TRCA has sold land to private citizens in the past, so we know that A) it IS possible and B) it is not unheard of. So why is this some big precedent setting event that you and Tigger and some city councillor think it is? What if he was trying to buy the land off the city? Or a neighbor? In the end does it REALLY matter who it's from? If so, why?

Lastly, if all they need is photos of the land, then they can send someone with a camera to the location during the day to take pictures when Ford isnt at home.

 

[Tigger]

Most of that has already been answered, it's very unusual and would merit investigation to discern the circumstances on the ground whether it was Ford or not. What's to investigate? The w5 of a land deal involving the TRCA.

During the 'day'? You mean daylight hours or 9 to 5? Personally I think 7:30 is fairly reasonable for a journalist to have a look given sunset is an hour away at this time of year. I mean, if it's ok for a photographer during 'working hours', what's the actual difference? Why does Ford's or anyone else's absence matter?

I don't think the journalist in question was just there for photos though, he was there to get a feel for what was going on, photos don't always tell you that.

 

[Kin]

But what is there to investigate?

There is no way to know something like that unless you investigate. Good investigative journalism isn't sitting around an office until someone calls you up and says "Something shady is going on, someone just handed a city councillor a big bribe!".

Upon news that the TRCA was petitioned to make an extremely unconventional deal with a private citizen, the mayor, the Star began the process of investigation by means of having a reporter look at the land to see if there was anything suspicious. That's the starting point of an investigation. The fact that there's that basic level of investigation is not tantamount to saying that their investigation will turn up something untowards but unless you investigate you'd never know.

We have already established the fact that the TRCA has sold land to private citizens in the past, so we know that A) it IS possible and B) it is not unheard of. So why is this some big precedent setting event that you and Tigger and some city councillor think it is? What if he was trying to buy the land off the city? Or a neighbor? In the end does it REALLY matter who it's from? If so, why?

Most of those questions have already been answered. A conservation authority being petitioned to do something they haven't done for 20 years is newsworthy because of the whole purpose of conservation authorities. It would represent a policy shift. As the councillor points out, if approved, it would open the floodgates to other requests from other security minded individuals.

I'm pretty sure you can work out the difference between the public's interest in a sale of public land, land owned by a conservation authority and a land deal between two private citizens by yourself.

Lastly, if all they need is photos of the land, then they can send someone with a camera to the location during the day to take pictures when Ford isnt at home.

This kind of reveals that you're not overly familiar with the way a modern newsroom works. There aren't dozens of photographers sitting around looking for something to do. Most papers will have a few staff photographers and maybe a couple of freelancers. The paper will use those people to be actively gathering photos of pictures of stories that will find their way into tomorrow's paper. They won't have the time or money to send them out to snap pictures of something that might never get into the paper for investigative purposes.

But, as Tigger points out, it wasn't just a matter of photos. It was a matter of investigating the legitimacy of Ford's claim that he needed the land to improve his house's security. Part of that involves looking at the land and its relation to Ford's house.

 

[TML fan]

It seems to me that Ford just wants the land, and it's more of an inconvenience that TRCA owns it. Selling it doesn't open any floodgates. The floodgates were opened 20 years ago when they first sold land to a private citizen. Councillor whatshisface can sit there and say that they don't sell land to citizens, but the fact is that they have, and can again under the right circumstances.

It also seems to me that the Star, with a known axe to grind against the Mayor, is the only newspaper that decided to "investigate" this so called newsworthy story....with a cellphone camera. He didn't even need a photographer. Just some guy with a cellphone. He could have done this when Ford wasn't home.

I understand where you are coming from, and you make good points, particularly about him needing the land for security reasons, but this reporter was completely unprofessional and his credibility is paper thin. With the Star's history with Ford, the only part of his story I'm buying is that Ford got pissed off.

 

[Kin]

It seems to me that Ford just wants the land, and it's more of an inconvenience that TRCA owns it. Selling it doesn't open any floodgates. The floodgates were opened 20 years ago when they first sold land to a private citizen.

Do you know that 20 years ago was the first time that TRCA sold land to a private citizen? Because if not it could have been a practice that they stopped as evidenced by the fact that it hasn't happened for 20 years. Were the circumstances the same? Was it a sale to a developer of land that was deemed in the public's interest? Or was it, like this, a sale to a homeowner for the purposes of "increasing security".

The fact that the TRCA once sold land to a private citizen, many years ago(and I'll be honest all I've got to go on for that is that quote from the councillor, doesn't immediately set a precedent for all future sales.

I'm going to guess that you don't have an answer for those questions because, quite frankly, I've looked and haven't found much about the TRCA's history of selling land. But that's precisely why, when the possibility of TRCA doing something they haven't done in a generation, it behooves an investigative reporter to look into the matter and find these things out, whether or not it results in a story being written. 

It also seems to me that the Star, with a known axe to grind against the Mayor, is the only newspaper that decided to "investigate" this so called newsworthy story....with a cellphone camera. He didn't even need a photographer.

Again, photographers wouldn't be used in the purpose of investigation before they knew what the story was.

And you're leaping to conclusions. You have no idea if any other paper looked into this matter. They may not have printed anything yet but that doesn't mean an investigation didn't take place. All we know is that Dale is the only reporter our moron mayor decided to run at. This "so called story" is only being called a story by you because you're not drawing the line between a story(which is actually printed or reported) and an investigation. The only actual story this investigation resulted in, so far anyway, is the story about the confrontation.

Just some guy with a cellphone. He could have done this when Ford wasn't home.

As mentioned, that's not really realistic considering he already has a job as a city hall reporter. Anything outside of that would have to come outside of normal working hours.

But more to the point, why should it? He was standing on TRCA land, looking at TRCA land. He's under no obligation to do so according to Ford's schedule.

I understand where you are coming from, and you make good points, but this reporter was completely unprofessional and his credibility is paper thin.

This reporter has won national awards for his reporting and was conducting a routine preliminary investigation. The only person who acted unreasonably or unprofessionally is the Mayor. He doesn't get to decide who is on TRCA land or demand that they do it at his convenience.