What are they worth?

[hobarth]

Hobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

 

[hobarth]

Is there any Cup winning roster that any of the core 4 couldn't crack?
None that I can think of.

Are any of them grossly out of line with what they're currently paid?
I don't think so.

You might debate Tavares but when he was a UFA, a bunch of teams would have given him that deal to sign him.

The issue is closer to how do they surround these players with enough talent to win a Cup.
Maybe one of them will get flipped to free up dollars for the D, for example. But I'm not sure they're at that point and it would depend on what they're getting back.

The notion that the core 4 needs to be broken up simply because of the team results to date seems flawed. To me, it is a core 5 anyway. I look back to '67 and can't recall many, if any, seasons with a core 5 like they've got right now. If the goaltending holds up and they can land some physical D that can PK, they've got another good shot next spring. Those are significant IFs but they're not in a bad place right now.

I agree TO has a core 5, Rielly being another member of this select group.

The team in '67 didn't have a core 4/5, what they had was depth and a willingness to compete which I feel TO's core 4/5 is missing.

What you're asking for requires $s and because the core 4/5 is so well paid there isn't enough $s to properly acquire decent depth.

Another way of looking at the original intent of this thread might be What Are They Worth as a core, $47 mil. now and far more in the very near future means to me that TO will probably miss out on what should've have been a prime opportunity to be Cup competitive. The talent is there but I think the character is missing. This reminds me of Kessel, it was always mentioned that he wasn't a winner and therefore not worth the $8 mil. he was being paid. He gets traded to Pitts. and was being given serious consideration as Pitts' MVP in their first Cup win.

7 chances to prove their value, I can't say that I have been impressed by any of this core in the playoffs, they have not been good enough to overcome TO's depth problem so together they aren't worth what they're paid, that might change on different teams like the transformation of Kessel years ago.

Separated they might become worthy of their remuneration.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

You definitely didn't answer it. It's a yes/no question. He's almost universally appreciated as one of the greatest goal-scorers ever; certainly of the last 20 years.

What's that player worth? Whatever he asks for, that's what.

So, Matthews, who's pretty much a PPG player in the playoffs is not as good of a play-off performer based on Eichel's one playoff run?

In all honesty, and I mean no offense, it sounds like you're searching for reasons to justify why the leafs players aren't worth what they're paid. Matthews got votes for the Selke last year.

 

[hobarth]

Hobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

You definitely didn't answer it. It's a yes/no question. He's almost universally appreciated as one of the greatest goal-scorers ever; certainly of the last 20 years.

What's that player worth? Whatever he asks for, that's what.

So, Matthews, who's pretty much a PPG player in the playoffs is not as good of a play-off performer based on Eichel's one playoff run?

In all honesty, and I mean no offense, it sounds like you're searching for reasons to justify why the leafs players aren't worth what they're paid. Matthews got votes for the Selke last year.

So what you're saying, I assume, is that Matthews can go his entire career, never win a Cup, not even come close but still deserves to be considered a great all situations goal scorer and be able to dictate what his contracts should be?

TO be dammed, right now he can ask for $16 mil. per and you're alright with that, that's what being a fan is all about, blind faith.

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

When I see Matthews being awarded trophies, it reminds me of figure skating/diving competitions when the obvious best person doesn't win for whatever reason, McDavid is the best forward in the NHL and should win all awards that his talent deserves, Matthews is in the top 5 but the gap between him and McDavid is huge. I think McDavid felt insulted last year and was definitely out to prove that he is the only player that should be getting serious consideration for any award he could be awarded, I think he's proved his point.

PPG in the playoffs is good, great even, but not so much when most of those points are collected at the beginning of series and Matthews' contributions diminish when they're needed most, when TO needs to finish. I'm not saying that Matthews is the sole reason for TO's failures but I do say that he shouldn't be paid like a super hero until he is one, for the money he's made he should be able to put the Leafs on his shoulders and carry them far further than he has to date. 

I find it strange that a player that doesn't PK would be considered for a Selke, don't you?

Your insistence on a simple yes/no answer is very Judge Judy, this isn't a court, it's a forum.

 

[Bullfrog]

So what you're saying, I assume, is that Matthews can go his entire career, never win a Cup, not even come close but still deserves to be considered a great all situations goal scorer and be able to dictate what his contracts should be?

TO be dammed, right now he can ask for $16 mil. per and you're alright with that, that's what being a fan is all about, blind faith.

More-or-less, yes. Team accomplishments really have nothing to do with determining his worth as an individual. Are you saying that McDavid won't be considered one of the best players to ever wear skates if the Oilers don't win the cup?

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

That's not an award. So, I don't even know how to respond.

When I see Matthews being awarded trophies, it reminds me of figure skating/diving competitions when the obvious best person doesn't win for whatever reason, McDavid is the best forward in the NHL and should win all awards that his talent deserves, Matthews is in the top 5 but the gap between him and McDavid is huge. I think McDavid felt insulted last year and was definitely out to prove that he is the only player that should be getting serious consideration for any award he could be awarded, I think he's proved his point.

When Matthews won the award, he was top 10 in points (only 15 behind McDavid) and scored 16 more goals than McDavid in fewer games (he was 2nd in league PPG) while also being a better all-around player. So, I mean, good for McDavid for proving his point?

I find it strange that a player that doesn't PK would be considered for a Selke, don't you?

No. I don't.

Your insistence on a simple yes/no answer is very Judge Judy, this isn't a court, it's a forum.

Judge Judy? It was a simple yes/no question. You're certainly welcome to elaborate on your answer.

 

[louisstamos]

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

 

[Bullfrog]

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Unlike Eichel, he didn't single-handedly carry the team on his shoulders, score every goal, win every fight, cure COVID, or end racism.

 

[hobarth]

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Unlike Eichel, he didn't single-handedly carry the team on his shoulders, score every goal, win every fight, cure COVID, or end racism.

And he never will when he's the top paid player in the NHL.

Maybe Maroon shouldn't be the highest paid player in the NHL but there are a lot of highly paid players that probably considered the impact of their contract demands that allowed him to be on their teams. I guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

 

[louisstamos]

I guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

Except that according to the reports out there, Matthews is willing to take a lower AAV on a shorter deal in order ensure that the team is more competitive around him.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/maple-leafs-auston-matthews-would-consider-taking-less-money-151004985.html

But I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[azzurri63]

There's no debating M&M are top players in the league. Matthews in my opinion worth more because of the position he plays. He's better than Eichel in my opinion. The beef I have with them is they can't seem to handle playoff hockey. Players elevate their games come playoff and you have to that's what it takes to win. Reilly does that pretty well every year whereas M&M disappear. Elite players like McDavid, MacKinnon etc may not put up points every single game but you notice them every game and for the most part every shift. I keep thinking to game 3 of the Florida series and both really piss*d me off as they completely mailed it in. Salaries keep going up that's the reality of all sports but personally I don't think either deserves more than what they are getting. They haven't shown up in the playoffs to warrant any substantial raises and their greed is hurting to try and fill out the roster with any meaningful upgrades. Reilly took less why can't the greedy 3 do the same? Until they do we are in this dilemma until Tavares is done. maybe that's managements thinking pay them what they want we'll hurt until that day comes with JT off the books and the cap rising.

 

[Kin]

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

There's an old expression I like. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". You're looking for logic and consistency where none exists. The entire argument is "The guys on the Leafs can't win a cup because they haven't won a cup". It's just meaningless drivel at this point repeated ad nauseum.

 

[Highlander]

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

There's an old expression I like. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". You're looking for logic and consistency where none exists. The entire argument is "The guys on the Leafs can't win a cup because they haven't won a cup". It's just meaningless drivel at this point repeated ad nauseum.

How true!

 

[hobarth]

I guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

Except that according to the reports out there, Matthews is willing to take a lower AAV on a shorter deal in order ensure that the team is more competitive around him.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/maple-leafs-auston-matthews-would-consider-taking-less-money-151004985.html

But I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.

My understanding from the media is that TO is observing total silence on any Leaf issue, I haven't read the article you've referred to but there is little to no credible info about the Leafs, especially in regards to contract specifics.
Servalli is a credible source I'd say but I'd like to know where he got this info from. I don't know why people think that any of this is my narrative, I simply have stated what I've seen, AM & MM are paid over $10. mil per, I can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Like I've said and I guess I need to again, I don't think any of TO's core 4 is overpaid, I think they as a group are overpaid and shouldn't receive pay raises until they provide better results at all times, especially during the playoffs. When players like TO's core 4 are so well paid they need to be accountable every game, every shift, at all times, they're paid like they're generational players, pretty well as good as McDavid, then they need to be McDavids, anything less at all times isn't acceptable.

JT has earned his pay, he should've been paid as well as he is now while he was with the NYI but most teams will pay their better players based on what they've done in the past with some idea that they can still be productive in the future, JT matches all of these criteria.

I felt thru most of the Florida series that AM & MM were missing in action, I mostly noticed MM when he was PKing but you know penalty killers generally don't get hit or roughed up, that's the types of games/scenarios that both MM & AM thrive, we've seen that year after year, playoff game after playoff game, maybe they can be supported by the right types of players that will enable them to play at the level commensurate of their pay but they get paid so much that that type of support is fiscally out of TO's reach. These guys should be far better on the PP but neither would go anywhere close to the opposition's net even tho the success rate of TO's PP during the playoffs left a lot to be desired, they needed to get into the trenches for TO to have any chance to win, they didn't and hadn't in previous years.

Is the code of silence that envelops the Leafs for real, Klingberg's, Bertuzzi's and Domi's signings were mostly a total surprise to us and the media, the legend of LL still permeates the Leaf's organization.

 

[Joe S.]

I'm convinced you live in an alternate timeline and some fracture in the time space continuum has you accessing our reality but you are not aware that you?ve crossed over.

It?s the only logical conclusion I can come to reading whatever it is you put together.

 

[Deebo]

The Leafs interest in Reaves, Bertuzzi, and Domi were all reported well before the signings.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

 

[Joe S.]

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Win a cup, by himself, 1 vs 5, hulk hogan style.

 

[Kin]

When players like TO's core 4 are so well paid they need to be accountable every game, every shift, at all times, they're paid like they're generational players, pretty well as good as McDavid, then they need to be McDavids, anything less at all times isn't acceptable.

Nylander makes less than 7 million per year. Anyone who then thinks Connor McDavid is a reasonable standard to compare him to is, plainly, a lunatic.

 

[cw]

I can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

 

[ZBBM]

I can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

Great post, cw.  I mean, really great stuff.  Thx for the perspective.