2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Kin]

I don't think they would attempt to do that.. at least not in any direct kind of way... I think the owners feel their message isn't being relayed properly by Fehr and this is their chance to have it heard first hand.  Who knows if they are right or wrong in that.

Well, just fundamentally they're wrong. Players have been at every meeting where they've heard everything Gary Bettman has said first hand. The idea that Fehr's mere presence in the room somehow filters what players hear doesn't really ring true. While I'm sympathetic to the idea that the owners might do a better job making their case than Bettman has, this certainly won't be the first time that players have heard someone make the owners case besides Fehr.

I think the meeting is a chance to mend some fences, and maybe after a lot of that warm and fuzzy stuff, drop a nice shiny counter proposal on the table near the closing, or a piece of one that speaks to a few specific points that the players are fighting for.  I doubt they expect to get actual negotiations going in the meeting itself but if they did say "please take this back to your membership.. we are willing to drop this point X if you guys are willing to drop point Y and Z, so let us know, ok dudes?"

Like I said, I think the idea that the owners want to make their own case or mend fences is one that has genuine potential. Actually discussing specific points of the various proposals, however, even in the best case will just be a game of telephone where the players leave the meeting and bring it to Fehr and the owners leave the meeting and bring it to the rest of the BOG.

Anyways...this all depends on the assumption that there's significant movement to be had anyway. So while I'd love for this meeting to yield results...I hear TPC Sawgrass is a heck of a course.

 

[Kin]

All it opens up for the membership as a whole is potential for antitrust lawsuits, depending on how the league acts after the union decertifies/disclaims interest. Maybe that fear sparks something on the owner's side (it may have in the NBA and the NFL), but, if it doesn't, and the league decides to suspend operations, the players could really be left with nothing. And, even if it does spark something, until the union reforms, the league won't have anyone it can legally negotiate a CBA with.

Well, that or there's a legitimate plan to go through with it. If that's the case it's something the league would be very, very concerned by. I mean if the NHL lost an anti-trust suit, even if it was just based on the league missing half the season, the damages would be, well, whatever three times the salary players have missed out is. 2 billion? Three billion? That's 100 million dollars per team and that's in the very unlikely event that it would only cover half a season. If it's a lawsuit that covers a whole season you're probably talking about damages that approach the total value of the 30 franchises themselves.

Why risk that over a 200 million dollar or so difference and some contract provisions?

 

[bustaheims]

Well, that or there's a legitimate plan to go through with it. If that's the case it's something the league would be very, very concerned by. I mean if the NHL lost an anti-trust suit, even if it was just based on the league missing half the season, the damages would be, well, whatever three times the salary players have missed out is. 2 billion? Three billion? That's 100 million dollars per team and that's in the very unlikely event that it would only cover half a season. If it's a lawsuit that covers a whole season you're probably talking about damages that approach the total value of the 30 franchises themselves.

Why risk that over a 200 million dollar or so difference and some contract provisions?

I suppose that depends on how much of a case the NHL believes the PA has. If the league legitimately believes the PA doesn't have a case, and it wouldn't surprise me if they see things that way, they wouldn't see it as anything to fear. On top of that, I would imagine the league would have some doubts about the players seeing it through, as it's almost lose-lose for them. If they lose the case, they've essentially player their trump card to no available. Meanwhile, a win in the courts could very much be a pyrrhic victory for them - they'd get some vindication and some money out of it, but, that level of loses, combined with the length of time it would realistically take to get the case sorted out would mean the end of many careers and almost certainly seeing a number of teams pushed into bankruptcy and/or folding - which would limit the earning potential for remaining and future members of the PA. I'd say there's a similar amount of risk there for the players, and would they be willing to take it all the way over the same $200M and contract provisions considering how their potential short-term gains could be significantly outweighed by their potential long-term losses?

 

[Kin]

I suppose that depends on how much of a case the NHL believes the PA has. If the league legitimately believes the PA doesn't have a case, and it wouldn't surprise me if they see things that way, they wouldn't see it as anything to fear.

That would contradict just about everything that I've read on the subject though. Not that the players would win necessarily but that it seems like the collective opinion of legal minds regarding a pro sports league going down this route boils down to "who knows?". So I really can't see teams that could be on the hook for damages representing double or triple the value of their franchises willing to back a play based on a spin of the judicial roulette wheel. The reality is that no matter what the league thinks, this is putting the decision in the hands of the judiciary. I don't care how strong a case the league thinks they have, this is taking it out of their hands.

The reason this has proven a meaningful motivational tool towards negotiation is that this would be a point where each individual owner almost certainly would want their own legal opinion and, again, consensus does not seem to be that there's anything resembling defined law on the matter.

On top of that, I would imagine the league would have some doubts about the players seeing it through, as it's almost lose-lose for them. If they lose the case, they've essentially player their trump card to no available. Meanwhile, a win in the courts could very much be a pyrrhic victory for them - they'd get some vindication and some money out of it, but, that level of loses, combined with the length of time it would realistically take to get the case sorted out would mean the end of many careers and almost certainly seeing a number of teams pushed into bankruptcy and/or folding - which would limit the earning potential for remaining and future members of the PA. I'd say there's a similar amount of risk there for the players, and would they be willing to take it all the way over the same $200M and contract provisions considering how their potential short-term gains could be significantly outweighed by their potential long-term losses?

I think it actually breaks the other way for the players. They lose and they take whatever deal is on the table and they're millionaires. They win and they have to break their backs carrying the money home and they're millionaires.

There's a reason that every union in recent CBA battles have gone this route. They can take this shot in the dark and if they lose, they re-certify and they're back to square one. If they hit, heck even if they nick it and get a favourable initial ruling or two? Then the owners are looking down the barrel of losses that will dent even their hides.

 

[Corn Flake]

Positive vibes coming out of the meeting today that lasted 5.5 hours.

Ron Burkle getting a lot of the rumour credit.

 

[Redleaf]

Positive vibes coming out of the meeting today that lasted 5.5 hours.

Ron Burkle getting a lot of the rumour credit.

Yeah. Meeting to continue after break into the night. Are we finally beginning to see some traction??? Fingers crossed.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The media's favourite buzzword/phrase: "cautiously optimistic"

 

[Deebo]

The media's favourite buzzword/phrase: "cautiously optimistic"

I don't want to get excited.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Scott Morrison ‏@morrisonSNET

Gary Bettman press conference tomorrow at 1pmET on @Sportsnet East, ON, West & Pac; on @FAN590; on FAN960 & live streaming on Sportsnet.ca

Seems to be the only one reporting this that I can see.

 

[bustaheims]

Scott Morrison ‏@morrisonSNET

Gary Bettman press conference tomorrow at 1pmET on @Sportsnet East, ON, West & Pac; on @FAN590; on FAN960 & live streaming on Sportsnet.ca

Seems to be the only one reporting this that I can see.

There's a BoG meeting scheduled for tomorrow.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Figured it was something less than exciting, but never know.  That's probably it then.

 

[bustaheims]

drosennhl: Meetings have resumed. Bettman and Fehr are NOT in the room, as was originally planned.

 

[bustaheims]

Figured it was something less than exciting, but never know.  That's probably it then.

Probably. It's a good opportunity to have a more formal meeting with the media to address their questions, etc. I imagine there will be some updates on today's meetings, though, with Bettman not taking part in them, it'll be 2nd hand info.

 

[Ronco]

Well in my opinion the NFL is winding down.
This is their time that to gather back some revenue from the impasse, they may recoup some dough.
It's the point in time that matters now.

Something is gonna give.
It's not gonna make a season, but may make it easier next season.
Best case scenario.
They get some good will from the fans going into the next season.

 

[Redleaf]

Latest update from the TSN crew...

http://iphone.tsn.ca/mobile/2012/12/04/panelsc3_120412.mp4

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Steve Fehr and Bill Daly holding joint press conference although won't say much. Fehr called it maybe best day so far in this process

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Both sides will meeting again in morning, Daly said. With same group on each side

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Steve Fehr says it was a constructive day in some ways best day they've had. Daly says appreciate efforts of the players. Will meet tomorrow

 

[Bender]

Want to see what happens at the BoG meetings today...

 

[hockeyfan1]

Penguins captain Sidney Crosby was among the 18 players who sat across from six team owners, which included Pittsburgh's Ron Burkle, and those two were said to be strong voices in the room, according to sources.

"Sid's a team guy," said a source close to Crosby. "He's about the game."

Glad to read that.  Hopefully some positive news comes out of tomorrow's press conference.  Maybe we'll have a season soon after all, who knows. (*keeping fingers crossed*) 

Source:  Sportnet

 

[Redleaf]

The media's favourite buzzword/phrase: "cautiously optimistic"

I don't want to get excited.

I don't see any reason not to be at this point. Both sides made concessions yesterday. Really. If this thing falls apart now, then it will be an epic, colossal disaster. I just can't see that happening now. It may drag on a bit more, but I think we'll be watching NHL hockey again soon!

 

[Deebo]

I think we'll be watching NHL hockey again soon!

Same here, all the optimism from earlier bargaining sessions seemed to be media generated. This time, you can see a change in tone from the principles.
Same here