2015 NHL Entry Draft - Draft Day!

[L K]

Where's that comment from Babcock about players having a good relationship with the media.  Why the hell isn't there a mutual accountability in this city. 

"Hey, remember that time where your Dad got horribly concussed and didn't know where he was and was flopping all over the ice.  Was that fun or what?"

I don't really think it's that out of bounds a question if, and I'm sure you'll grant this is more likely, the question was "Hey, you ever see the Darcy Tucker hit on your Dad?" or something to that effect. I'd ask Max Domi if he'd ever seen his father's fights with Bob Probert.

Yeah, I'll buy that, and in all honesty the question was actually asked in a pretty reasonable way. I'm surprised it was Paul Hendrick who asked it though.  He gave a really good answer to the question actually.  "Watched it once and don't want to watch it again...proud of my Dad for getting up and then Roenick scores right after".  Actually it's pretty interesting listening to him in his interview.  I forget that he grew up in North America.

 

[Highlander]

I would have loved to see Domi beat the shit out of Bob Newhart?just kidding ;D


Are you just leaking gibberish at this point?

Yes of course I am, to many Bracardi's?time to sleep

 

[hobarth]

Bergeron maybe.

Maybe, but I'd put him the group with the 2nd tier guys I wouldn't want as the centrepiece of my top line. Not without some excellent depth, at least.

I went as far back of 1994 and going through the draft really the only centers with significant production drafted outside of the 1st round: Marc Savard, Steve Sullivan, Mike Ribeiro, Brad Richards, Henrik Zetterberg, Patrice Bergeron, Paul Stastny, David Kreijci, Derek Roy, Ryan O'Reilly.

I'll give you Zetterberg as a top guy, maybe Bergeron.  Personally I'd probably accept Savard (concussion free) and Brad Richards at his peak was a #1 calibre guy but overally that's a list of really good second line centers and even those guys were primarly drafted in the 2nd/3rd round so you really don't get that top center talent in the later half of the draft.

I think you left out Datsyuk and tho Getzlaf was a 1st rounder he was picked later in the first round but the point should be is Marner a center and if he is, is he possibly elite because I would think if he was Dvorak wouldn't be the #1 on his junior team, he's an elite winger as is Kessel but I don't think the transition to center would be easy for Kessel or even worthwhile, would it be for Marner?

I think we should exclude Boston from any logical discussion of player movements.

Well, if you're going to do that, you're gonna have to go back significantly farther to find a true top-end #1 center being moved. Probably all the way back to Lindros being traded to the Rangers, and he was so broken, he was really only that guy for one season after the trade. Before Lindros? Nieuwendyk in the early 90s.

It's generally accepted that d-men take longer to grow/mature than forwards so where they end up in the draft shouldn't be an indication of anything other than it's far harder to learn to play defines.

But, that's kind of the whole point we're making here. High quality defencemen drop in the draft because the high-end centers are easily identified. That's why the centers are found almost exclusively at the top of the draft while the stud defencemen are peppered throughout it. When you have the chance to take that top center, you have to take advantage of it, because you're not going to find him anywhere else. You might with the stud defenceman.

So what you're trying to say is that d-men because they are harder to identify shouldn't be chosen high in the draft whereas any forward who accomplishes in junior and demonstrates superiority should always take precedence. That's the goalie argument, for me it works for goalies but I don't agree with d-men. The McKinnon draft was originally the Jones draft but I think in the end Jones will prove to be the more valuable player even tho McKinnon will probably have insanely great stats.

If you look at stats especially with d-men they are usually going to pale in relation to their forward contemporaries whether in junior or the NHL but who's more valuable the 18 to 20 minute forward or the 25 to 30 minute d-man, I think forwards are sexier because they're easily identifiable and an easier sell to fans. Taking the safe choice is/has been the problem with TO's selections in past drafts, actually TO has redefined the word safe, it has also been a major problem with Edmonton.

I don't want TO to choose the best forward, I would rather the choice be the best player. That Babcock and Hunter had a debate on who to choose probably shows that the difference between say Hanifin and Marner was negligible and it was probably Hunter's familiarity with Marner that ultimately won out.

We're not looking for run of the mill scouting and drafting, we're looking for more. 

 

[Kin]

So what you're trying to say is that d-men because they are harder to identify shouldn't be chosen high in the draft whereas any forward who accomplishes in junior and demonstrates superiority should always take precedence.

What? He said in plain english that because defensemen are harder to scout there's a better chance of landing good to great ones later in the draft than there is with forwards. That's pretty simple and inarguably true. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

You'd really do better responding to the things people actually say rather than rush to respond to straw men.

 

[Tigger]

That Babcock and Hunter had a debate on who to choose probably shows that the difference between say Hanifin and Marner was negligible and it was probably Hunter's familiarity with Marner that ultimately won out.

It could also easily be Hunter's familiarity with Hanifin and Marner that won out but at least you're giving Marner a little credit.

For Mike to be publicly pumping the Leafs need for a stud dman is strange to me.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I wonder how many times Babcock really watched Marner and Hanifin play over the past year. I mean, he obviously had other duties to look after in Detroit, he wasn't out scouting games at all. We all remember the quote that Babcock himself had about Hunter when he came in, that he just "finds players". I get that Babs wants more control over the roster, and I do think that there's some value in letting him make some roster-management calls, but this isn't one of them. Babcock isn't an amateur scout, he really shouldn't have any say on the draft. Whereas the draft was basically the exact reason we brought Hunter in.

 

[herman]

I wonder how many times Babcock really watched Marner and Hanifin play over the past year. I mean, he obviously had other duties to look after in Detroit, he wasn't out scouting games at all. We all remember the quote that Babcock himself had about Hunter when he came in, that he just "finds players". I get that Babs wants more control over the roster, and I do think that there's some value in letting him make some roster-management calls, but this isn't one of them. Babcock isn't an amateur scout, he really shouldn't have any say on the draft. Whereas the draft was basically the exact reason we brought Hunter in.

Pretty much this.

This is a normal conversation in management circles on NHL teams as far as I know. The only difference is that it's Toronto, so it's overblown to try to generate conflict.

My take on the conversation was that the group sat down and Shanahan asked everyone to speak their minds. Babcock believes in building a core around a top D and top C, which isn't wrong. Hunter believes Marner can play C (which he had all his life until playing on the Knights, where he wasn't initially the top cookie). Babcock also publicly professed admiration for Hunter's gift of talent recognition. Everybody is in agreement.

 

[rdowdall]

Bergeron maybe.

Maybe, but I'd put him the group with the 2nd tier guys I wouldn't want as the centrepiece of my top line. Not without some excellent depth, at least.

Is Jamie Benn a center or winger?  HockeyDB has him as a centre. NHL.com has him as a left winger.  I think in the past he played center, but when Seguin came over, he moved to the wing. 

 

[hobarth]

So what you're trying to say is that d-men because they are harder to identify shouldn't be chosen high in the draft whereas any forward who accomplishes in junior and demonstrates superiority should always take precedence.

What? He said in plain english that because defensemen are harder to scout there's a better chance of landing good to great ones later in the draft than there is with forwards. That's pretty simple and inarguably true. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.

You'd really do better responding to the things people actually say rather than rush to respond to straw men.

High drafted d-men are as warranted as high drafted forwards, Doughty, Ekblad, the list goes on and on, it's always possible to snag any kind of bargain anywhere in the draft but some d-men appear to mature later so spotting them and drafting them where they should be drafted can happen, so what, it's the same for any draft choice.

There's nothing inarguable about this except what you've decided is.

Let's get back on track, Marner except for a brief period has been a RW in the OHL, not a center, maybe he can be we don't know so why point out where centers are drafted because until proven otherwise Marner is a RW. My conception of the foundations of a team are centers, d-men and goalies, Marner has not proven himself any of these and therefore I like Babcock would have preferred that TO take the the generally accepted #3 ranked player in the draft, a d-man, because d-men are foundation/cornerstone players. 

 

[Kin]

High drafted d-men are as warranted as high drafted forwards, Doughty, Ekblad, the list goes on and on

Good lord, you can't legitimately be that dense, can you? He didn't say good defensemen aren't drafted high. Just that a greater concentration of the top centers are drafted that high in the draft then top defensemen.

You're really straining credulity at this point.

 

[hobarth]

High drafted d-men are as warranted as high drafted forwards, Doughty, Ekblad, the list goes on and on

Good lord, you can't legitimately be that dense, can you? He didn't say good defensemen aren't drafted high. Just that a greater concentration of the top centers are drafted that high in the draft then top defensemen.

You're really straining credulity at this point.

I have tried frequently to get you to acknowledge that Marner is a RW, it seems you are incapable or too dense to acknowledge that this has been been my contention all along, Marner isn't and hasn't been proven to be a center so why do I care about a center arguement about a noncenter. You continue to Nit Pik because as with all your arguments you can't properly follow a topic to it's conclusion, you are too content to waylay discussions to suit your needs, hence Nit Pik. 

 

[Kin]

Good lord, you can't legitimately be that dense, can you?

Wrong again, Nik.

 

[hobarth]

Good lord, you can't legitimately be that dense, can you?

Wrong again, Nik.

And again!

 

[bustaheims]

I have tried frequently to get you to acknowledge that Marner is a RW, it seems you are incapable or too dense to acknowledge that this has been been my contention all along, Marner isn't and hasn't been proven to be a center so why do I care about a center arguement about a noncenter. You continue to Nit Pik because as with all your arguments you can't properly follow a topic to it's conclusion, you are too content to waylay discussions to suit your needs, hence Nit Pik.

He'll be playing center for the Knights this season and the Leafs have said they view him as a center going forward, so, until it's proven that he can't/won't play center, he should be consider to be a center.

 

[Highlander]

Yes Hobarth this is the way it is going to be. Gran Marner will be a Centre, no nitpicking on that. It is written

 

[Bullfrog]

I have tried frequently to get you to acknowledge that Marner is a RW, it seems you are incapable or too dense to acknowledge that this has been been my contention all along, Marner isn't and hasn't been proven to be a center so why do I care about a center arguement about a noncenter. You continue to Nit Pik because as with all your arguments you can't properly follow a topic to it's conclusion, you are too content to waylay discussions to suit your needs, hence Nit Pik.

No idea why this is so important to you that he's not considered a center and that Nik has to some acknowledge that you're "correct."

Have you tried -- just for fun -- doing an internet search including the words "Marner" and "center." The results may surprise you. NHL.com has him listed as a center. He was drafted into the OHL as a center. He played center in the playoffs.

 

[L K]

High drafted d-men are as warranted as high drafted forwards, Doughty, Ekblad, the list goes on and on

Good lord, you can't legitimately be that dense, can you? He didn't say good defensemen aren't drafted high. Just that a greater concentration of the top centers are drafted that high in the draft then top defensemen.

You're really straining credulity at this point.

I have tried frequently to get you to acknowledge that Marner is a RW, it seems you are incapable or too dense to acknowledge that this has been been my contention all along, Marner isn't and hasn't been proven to be a center so why do I care about a center arguement about a noncenter. You continue to Nit Pik because as with all your arguments you can't properly follow a topic to it's conclusion, you are too content to waylay discussions to suit your needs, hence Nit Pik.

And I haved repeatedly contended that Marner has played plenty of center during the year with the Knights...meanwhile you have countered with "I didn't watch him".  So, yeah, that's an interesting connundrum.

 

[moon111]

Has he every played in net?

 

[Al14]

Has he every played in net?

It would free up Bernier for a trade! 

 

[herman]

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/07/13/toronto-maple-leafs-2015-draft-review-part-2/

In one of his Fan 590 interviews following the Kessel trade, one of the hosts pointed out to Kyle Dubas the potential logjam of small, skilled forwards within the system compared to the lack of strength and size. In brief, Dubas replied that the team?s focus moving forward would be to acquire as much skill as possible because of the relative difficulty in finding such players via trade or free agency. If they find themselves in a position where they need to address other needs (such as physicality or size), they would then look to deal from their position of strength, that is to say that abundance of skill, in order to make that happen.