GhostofPotvin29
New member
CarltonTheBear said:
Made them look like a bunch of Oilers prospects.
2015 NHL Entry Draft - Draft Day!
- Thread starter Jolly good show chaps
- Start date
Made them look like a bunch of Oilers prospects.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Toronto media!
http://twitter.com/HennyTweets/status/618467416675368960
http://twitter.com/HennyTweets/status/618467416675368960
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/the-leaf-report-kessel-deal-kadri-contract-and-draft-observations-1.327330
According to this Hunter and Babcock had quite the debate going on before the draft, Hunter was totally behind Marner while Babcock was looking for a stud d-man. It's felt that Marner has the skillset to be a center even though he hasn't been in the OHL, Babcock felt that a true #1 d-man would be useful everywhere and for 30 minutes a game. Detroit was a superior team while Lidstrom was superior when Lidstrom started his decline and retired they became above average but no longer a true Cup contender.
Is Rielly the real deal, if he isn't did TO miss an opportunity, when was the last time a true #1 d-man was traded, we've seen good to great centers, wingers and goalies moved but true #1 stud d-men are never moved, ever, why, probably because they are the rarest and most valuable asset any team could have. Boston without Chara wouldn't win the Cup, LA without Doughty, Chicago without Keith. Great centers are very important but Toews' offense dried up in the finals yet Chicago was able to win.
Edmonton has drafted a ton of extremely talented forwards but still couldn't make the playoffs, would McDavid be enough to get Edmonton into the playoffs, Lemieux couldn't with Pittsburgh even tho he scored 100 points in his 1st season, he might be if the defense somehow is propped up enough with Sekera, doubtful.
Should have Edmonton taken Seguin instead of Hall in the first of their 1st overalls, is a center more valuable than a winger? I'm certain that Marner is going to be a huge asset for the Leafs going forward but if he doesn't become a center, will he be a foundation type of player that most usually believe #1 centers, d-men and goaltenders are.
Has TO dropped the ball, has TO traded Kessel to make room for the next Kessel, can a winger lead a team to the cup? Is Babcock's years of coaching and knowledge of what makes teams succeed more significant than a scout's ability to find talent?
According to this Hunter and Babcock had quite the debate going on before the draft, Hunter was totally behind Marner while Babcock was looking for a stud d-man. It's felt that Marner has the skillset to be a center even though he hasn't been in the OHL, Babcock felt that a true #1 d-man would be useful everywhere and for 30 minutes a game. Detroit was a superior team while Lidstrom was superior when Lidstrom started his decline and retired they became above average but no longer a true Cup contender.
Is Rielly the real deal, if he isn't did TO miss an opportunity, when was the last time a true #1 d-man was traded, we've seen good to great centers, wingers and goalies moved but true #1 stud d-men are never moved, ever, why, probably because they are the rarest and most valuable asset any team could have. Boston without Chara wouldn't win the Cup, LA without Doughty, Chicago without Keith. Great centers are very important but Toews' offense dried up in the finals yet Chicago was able to win.
Edmonton has drafted a ton of extremely talented forwards but still couldn't make the playoffs, would McDavid be enough to get Edmonton into the playoffs, Lemieux couldn't with Pittsburgh even tho he scored 100 points in his 1st season, he might be if the defense somehow is propped up enough with Sekera, doubtful.
Should have Edmonton taken Seguin instead of Hall in the first of their 1st overalls, is a center more valuable than a winger? I'm certain that Marner is going to be a huge asset for the Leafs going forward but if he doesn't become a center, will he be a foundation type of player that most usually believe #1 centers, d-men and goaltenders are.
Has TO dropped the ball, has TO traded Kessel to make room for the next Kessel, can a winger lead a team to the cup? Is Babcock's years of coaching and knowledge of what makes teams succeed more significant than a scout's ability to find talent?
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
An argument could be made about Spezza, but I'd say the last real #1 center that was moved was probably Thornton.
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Yeah, that's a pretty good analog. Bouwmeester is very good but not quite a stud d-man. Spezza is very good but not quite a top end #1 center.
bustaheims
Active member
Also, as I've pointed out on a number of occasions, stud defencemen are found outside the 1st round at a much greater frequency than top-end #1 centers. Weber, Subban, Chara, Keith - all taken outside the 1st round. Giordano went undrafted. Even 2nd tier guys like Josi, Brodie, Stralman, etc were drafted in the 2nd round or later. I can't think of a single top-end C who was. Some 2nd tier types, sure, but no one you'd feel comfortable with as the centrepiece of your top line.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
bustaheims said:
Bergeron maybe.
bustaheims
Active member
Potvin29 said:
Maybe, but I'd put him the group with the 2nd tier guys I wouldn't want as the centrepiece of my top line. Not without some excellent depth, at least.
Kin
New member
To Busta's point, of the top 15 finishers in the Norris trophy voting only one player(Doughty) was both drafted in the top 15 and still with the team who drafted him.
On the flip side, there were 6 centers who finished in the top 15 in Hart voting and of those 6, 4 were taken in the top 3 of the draft and 5 are with the team who originally drafted them. The only guy who doesn't fit either category is Jiri Hudler, having a career year at 31.
edit: And it's pretty clear that despite how he was listed at Hockey Reference, Hudler isn't a center.
On the flip side, there were 6 centers who finished in the top 15 in Hart voting and of those 6, 4 were taken in the top 3 of the draft and 5 are with the team who originally drafted them. The only guy who doesn't fit either category is Jiri Hudler, having a career year at 31.
edit: And it's pretty clear that despite how he was listed at Hockey Reference, Hudler isn't a center.
I think we should exclude Boston from any logical discussion of player movements.
It's generally accepted that d-men take longer to grow/mature than forwards so where they end up in the draft shouldn't be an indication of anything other than it's far harder to learn to play defense.
I think if Spezza had a less injury filled career he would definitely be considered an elite #1 center.
It's generally accepted that d-men take longer to grow/mature than forwards so where they end up in the draft shouldn't be an indication of anything other than it's far harder to learn to play defense.
I think if Spezza had a less injury filled career he would definitely be considered an elite #1 center.
L K
Active member
bustaheims said:
I went as far back of 1994 and going through the draft really the only centers with significant production drafted outside of the 1st round: Marc Savard, Steve Sullivan, Mike Ribeiro, Brad Richards, Henrik Zetterberg, Patrice Bergeron, Paul Stastny, David Kreijci, Derek Roy, Ryan O'Reilly.
I'll give you Zetterberg as a top guy, maybe Bergeron. Personally I'd probably accept Savard (concussion free) and Brad Richards at his peak was a #1 calibre guy but overally that's a list of really good second line centers and even those guys were primarly drafted in the 2nd/3rd round so you really don't get that top center talent in the later half of the draft.
L K
Active member
Potvin29 said:
Where's that comment from Babcock about players having a good relationship with the media. Why the hell isn't there a mutual accountability in this city.
"Hey, remember that time where your Dad got horribly concussed and didn't know where he was and was flopping all over the ice. Was that fun or what?"
Kin
New member
Also worth mentioning re: forwards and defensemen. Whereas most of the good centers who fell in the draft had really big years in junior(Savard had 139 points in his draft year, Richards had 115 in his) and were passed over for...some reason probably having to do with size, a lot of the defensemen who dropped did so because they just didn't have very impressive junior careers. So Shea Weber had 18 points in 70 games in his draft year and Duncan Keith had 15 points in 41 games at Michigan State.
So there's some legit evidence that #1 defensemen can be developed at the pro level in a way centers can't.
So there's some legit evidence that #1 defensemen can be developed at the pro level in a way centers can't.
bustaheims
Active member
hobarth said:
Well, if you're going to do that, you're gonna have to go back significantly farther to find a true top-end #1 center being moved. Probably all the way back to Lindros being traded to the Rangers, and he was so broken, he was really only that guy for one season after the trade. Before Lindros? Nieuwendyk in the early 90s.
hobarth said:
But, that's kind of the whole point we're making here. High quality defencemen drop in the draft because the high-end centers are easily identified. That's why the centers are found almost exclusively at the top of the draft while the stud defencemen are peppered throughout it. When you have the chance to take that top center, you have to take advantage of it, because you're not going to find him anywhere else. You might with the stud defenceman.
Kin
New member
L K said:
I don't really think it's that out of bounds a question if, and I'm sure you'll grant this is more likely, the question was "Hey, you ever see the Darcy Tucker hit on your Dad?" or something to that effect. I'd ask Max Domi if he'd ever seen his father's fights with Bob Probert.
Highlander
Active member
I would have loved to see Domi beat the shit out of Bob Newhart?just kidding ;D