2023-24 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[azzurri63]

The bigger culprit here is what Treliving and his predecessor(s) did. I have to cut Treliving some slack because last summer, he inherited Dubas' situation. The UFA cupboard for what they needed was pretty bare when combined with their limited cap situation. As they tried to re-sign O'Rielly, Schenn, etc, other teams snatched up UFAs. Some of this was in the cards last June no matter who the GM was.

TRE came into a pretty good situation. He had 17m to address the team's needs. While the UFA market wasn't a banner year there still was some D that would have improved over what Klingberg brought...Dumba, Graves, Clifton, Gostisbehere, Gustafsson, were all affordable.
I have no issue with the Bert, Domi and D depth signings but the rest, not so much. Reaves, Kampf, Klingberg were failures before the ink dried. That's 7.65M in wasted space.

Dumba they tried for.
The Hockey News: Report: Maple Leafs 'Wanted' Defenseman Matt Dumba During Free Agency This Summer

Graves was left handed top 4 - not a great fit with McCabe/Rielly as they wanted a righty
Ditto for Gostisbehere
I'm sure they knew McCabe could play the right side but they also knew he preferred the left

Clifton was a righty but 5-6 - they wanted top 4
Ditto for Gustafsson as a 5-6 (I probably would have re-signed him over Klingberg though they might have said goodbye to Gustafsson before July 1 expecting they would get someone else)
Scott Mayfield wanted to stay with the Islanders and basically came to terms just before free agency
Gudas - Leafs tried. He didn't want to play in Canada - especially in Toronto due to media

These guys had to want to come to Toronto, pay the taxes, etc. Accept the media scrutiny.

On Jul 1, all the UFAs are falling like dominos. It's a musical chairs scramble. The dollars, term, talent, etc all has to fit.

Dumba was the only fit - a top 4 righty who will to come to Toronto but they couldn't agree on the number/terms. He didn't get the contract he wanted so he signed a one year deal with Arizona where he lives in the off season

The problem is, as we are seeing now, there were not a lot of these guys to go around. Teams are locking them up before they become UFAs and lost for nothing.

They need to bury Calgary tonight to get Tanev 2 pts closer to the trade market

Do we really want to trade for an aging D man who has had injury problems and give up more assets or picks which are becoming thin? Is he going to move the needle that much? Sure he'll help this blue line but at what cost? I've always like Tanev when he was in Vancouver but always hurt. last couple seasons in Calgary he's been healthy but always skeptical with him.

 

[cw]

They need to bury Calgary tonight to get Tanev 2 pts closer to the trade market

Do we really want to trade for an aging D man who has had injury problems and give up more assets or picks which are becoming thin? Is he going to move the needle that much? Sure he'll help this blue line but at what cost? I've always like Tanev when he was in Vancouver but always hurt. last couple seasons in Calgary he's been healthy but always skeptical with him.

I think he'll cost a top prospect or 1st rounder and maybe more depending on the bidding
I wouldn't do that to rent a UFA.
You might be able to get him as a UFA this summer for no prospect cost.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If Tre is wondering what it would look like he'd make it clear to Keefe that he needed to try it. Tre is still his boss.

I don't know that you want a GM telling a coach that he needs to try anything.

GMs and coaches talk all the time. The lineup isn't 100% all on Keefe. He has the final say being the head coach but gets input from others.

Sure. But making it clear that a coach needs to try something is not in a general manager's job description. Nor should it be.

Well, that's not quite true.

Sure there's some leeway and separation of duties, but Tre is still the General Manager.  If Keefe doesn't tow the line, Keefe is out.

Everybody has a boss, and if you don't like the direction your boss wants you to take, you can resign.

If Keefe were to put Matthews in net because he thought that would be a good idea, I'm pretty sure Keefe would find out how long his leash actually is. 

Well yes, if we're going to go on a strict hierarchy basis, Treliving is above Keefe and has the right to 'tell Keefe' what to do with the team. That said, my original point was that I don't think you want a team where the GM is telling the coach how to coach(directly in reference to Treliving ordering Keefe to put Nylander at centre). That's true for the coach, the players and the fans.

Keefe's job is to coach.
Treliving's job is to manage.

If he's not liking the coaching, or feels it's the reason the team is struggling, he has every right to make the change. But ordering a coach to try a certain player at centre, in my opinion, is not what a GM should be doing.

 

[ZBBM]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

 

[Joe S.]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

Absolutely. That I agree with. No issues with those contracts. He didn?t fk it up like he did with Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

 

[Highlander]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

I will go along with ZBBM on this. I do believe we will see some forward depth from our internal system. Perhaps as many as 3 spots next year. No free agency, trading precious picks. I posted during the game that it is not without possibility that we have different two different goalies in the next few weeks. The missing ingredient is a reliable D man who can crush offence in his own zone. Unfortunately both Gio and Brodie are fading fast and should be rested more.
At one point Timmons looked like he would step up. Is now the time? Do we have a look at Kokkonen who Keefe said was the most impressive player in camp.
The one thing that is clear is that with a proper stopper, a lot of the last weeks games would have turned out much different.

 

[Chris]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

I don't think it's a "full stop" at all. I've often thought this about Tavares the past couple of years - if you could swap him and his $11 mil contract out for, say, Jared McCann (40 goals last year) and Carter Verhaeghe (42 goals last year, 23 so far this year) this team would be better. Those 2 are signed for a total of $9.2 mil combined. Obviously you cannot simply trade Tavares or Nylander for those 2 for many reasons, but the point is the same - one _could_ in theory replace Nylander with 2 "lesser" players for the same or less cost, and the team could be better. It certainly would be deeper and perhaps would have a couple extra million left over to spend elsewhere.

Moot point now obviously, unless someone is asked to waive a NMC. Or maybe it could be applied to the upcoming Marner negotiation.

 

[Chris]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

I will go along with ZBBM on this. I do believe we will see some forward depth from our internal system. Perhaps as many as 3 spots next year. No free agency, trading precious picks. I posted during the game that it is not without possibility that we have different two different goalies in the next few weeks. The missing ingredient is a reliable D man who can crush offence in his own zone. Unfortunately both Gio and Brodie are fading fast and should be rested more.
At one point Timmons looked like he would step up. Is now the time? Do we have a look at Kokkonen who Keefe said was the most impressive player in camp.
The one thing that is clear is that with a proper stopper, a lot of the last weeks games would have turned out much different.

But who is the forward depth and will they be any better than Robertson, McMann, Holmberg (our current system depth that has graduated), Knies for that matter. I don't see a lot in the system that is likely to make a difference at the NHL level, at least immediately. There may be players who can grow into roles (and maybe some of the already mentioned will do that), but that will be a multi-year process.

Agree on the goalie, Jones has done well overall but seems to have regressed to his mean. Not surprising. We really need to hope that Samsonov can string together some good games and that Woll can get back to form quickly when he returns. Oh, he needs to stay healthy too.

Timmons...man, I wanted him to succeed but even if he does get more playing time, I don't see him as an offense crusher in the dzone. We're going to have to look outside for that player.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Now that we're out of the heat of the moment in last night's debate over Treliving & Keefe, I'll give the GM this: he re-signed 34 and 88.  Got it done.  No last-minute drama.  You may not like the dollars, term, or even the player, but they are legitimate top players in the league and anything Tre did other than re-signing them would have meant bringing in worse players a less competitive team.  Full stop.

Playoff performance to date notwithstanding, I'll take my chances of winning a Cup with these guys the next 5-8 years. 

I don't think it's a "full stop" at all. I've often thought this about Tavares the past couple of years - if you could swap him and his $11 mil contract out for, say, Jared McCann (40 goals last year) and Carter Verhaeghe (42 goals last year, 23 so far this year) this team would be better. Those 2 are signed for a total of $9.2 mil combined. Obviously you cannot simply trade Tavares or Nylander for those 2 for many reasons, but the point is the same - one _could_ in theory replace Nylander with 2 "lesser" players for the same or less cost, and the team could be better. It certainly would be deeper and perhaps would have a couple extra million left over to spend elsewhere.

Moot point now obviously, unless someone is asked to waive a NMC. Or maybe it could be applied to the upcoming Marner negotiation.

The league is littered with some pretty good players that the Leafs traded, or didn't re-sign.

This comes back down to trading away picks and prospects.

The good players you can't afford to keep, you trade from a position of strength and recoup picks and prospects. 

The Leafs have it all backwards, and it all stems from a "win now" mentality that hasn't worked for this team, ever.  All the way back to "Draft Shmaft" Cliff Fletcher.

16,34,44,88,91 are not the problem on this team.  Their salaries are not the problem.  No cheap home grown talent is the problem. 

 

[Chris]

The league is littered with some pretty good players that the Leafs traded, or didn't re-sign.

This comes back down to trading away picks and prospects.

The good players you can't afford to keep, you trade from a position of strength and recoup picks and prospects. 

The Leafs have it all backwards, and it all stems from a "win now" mentality that hasn't worked for this team, ever.  All the way back to "Draft Shmaft" Cliff Fletcher.

16,34,44,88,91 are not the problem on this team.  Their salaries are not the problem.  No cheap home grown talent is the problem. 

I agree with the general premise that the Leafs "went for it" too early, trading away draft picks like candy for rental players when they should have still been building the system. A couple of non-playoff seasons in the early "core years" would not have hurt and might have been beneficial. But what's done is done. I disagree about the salaries though - they are part of the problem. Every player is getting basically as much as possible and that doesn't leave enough for the rest of the team, which compounds the other problem (lack of cheap home grown talent). Tavares at $11 in particular, for what he is bringing these days that really hurts. And for another year too.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Hind sight is 20/20. Trading away valuable assets in case you don't re-sign them is a hard thing to do. Now trading firsts for marginal talent for a playoff run should have been done after they proved to be a team that can win a round in the playoffs.

 

[Arn]

If they trade any asset away at the deadline for playoff help this year it?ll be a disgrace. Don?t waste picks or prospects on this lineup.

 

[herman]

Found an RD partner for Rielly
https://x.com/34sixteen/status/1749146501740191996

 

[cw]

SPORTSNET: ?I definitely hate it?: Maple Leafs' Reaves discusses string of healthy scratches

And then there's Reaves, peeling off his gear and dripping with sweat after a longer practice session than the Leafs. First the hockey pads, then the high-tech, hinged knee braces strapped to each leg.

The braces have been a staple long before Reaves' recent injury, though.

"I have very loose knees. I've torn both knees, like, a ton of times, and I just don't feel comfortable on the ice without them anymore," Reaves tells Sportsnet.

"I've tried taking them off, and my knees are so loose that when I cut, like, to get out of bed the next morning, sometimes they pop out. So, keep 'em on.

"I wouldn't even practice without them."
...
Tomorrow is Saturday, Reaves' 37th birthday, which he'll celebrate by missing his 17th consecutive game since catching a rut and popping out a kneecap in an awkward crash into the boards.

In a league where there is an increased premium on skating, how can a forward - a big man - play effectively on knees like that?

That little media interview will probably accelerate however they're going to have to dispose of him.
Problem is, after he clears waivers, the balance of his salary will add ~$250k to their cap which by my calculation will put them over meaning someone else will also have to go.
I suspect management and the team may not be too enchanted with him.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I've been wondering what the deal with Reaves has been. He's been skating at regular practices for almost 3 weeks now and been wearing a grey jersey (indicating that he's at least cleared for contact) for at least almost 2 weeks. If he wasn't playing at the level he is now I'd imagine he'd probably be off the IR by now. But that would have forced the team to make a roster move, so it seems like they're probably stalling for as long as possible.

And Reaves publicly saying he's healthy might put some pressure on the Leafs to take him off IR. At this point they could be accused of circumventing the 23-man roster rule.

 

[cw]

And Reaves publicly saying he's healthy might put some pressure on the Leafs to take him off IR. At this point they could be accused of circumventing the 23-man roster rule.

Absolutely. Might have come from his agent to use the media.

Marlies Clifford was suspended for 3 games. Maybe he could help down there.

It is lousy in that it will also cost someone else their place on the roster.
(unless they give away more picks to dump him)

 

[herman]

Um maybe detachable knees is not good for for playing hockey

 

[cw]

Um maybe detachable knees is not good for for playing hockey

or guaranteed NHL contracts for 3 years ...

EDIT: there is something wrong with this GM ..

 

[Deebo]

I don't get why there was such a rush to throw money at 2 players with injury histories like Reaves and Klingberg on day 1 of free agency.

 

[Joe S.]

SPORTSNET: ?I definitely hate it?: Maple Leafs' Reaves discusses string of healthy scratches

And then there's Reaves, peeling off his gear and dripping with sweat after a longer practice session than the Leafs. First the hockey pads, then the high-tech, hinged knee braces strapped to each leg.

The braces have been a staple long before Reaves' recent injury, though.

"I have very loose knees. I've torn both knees, like, a ton of times, and I just don't feel comfortable on the ice without them anymore," Reaves tells Sportsnet.

"I've tried taking them off, and my knees are so loose that when I cut, like, to get out of bed the next morning, sometimes they pop out. So, keep 'em on.

"I wouldn't even practice without them."
...
Tomorrow is Saturday, Reaves' 37th birthday, which he'll celebrate by missing his 17th consecutive game since catching a rut and popping out a kneecap in an awkward crash into the boards.

In a league where there is an increased premium on skating, how can a forward - a big man - play effectively on knees like that?

That little media interview will probably accelerate however they're going to have to dispose of him.
Problem is, after he clears waivers, the balance of his salary will add ~$250k to their cap which by my calculation will put them over meaning someone else will also have to go.
I suspect management and the team may not be too enchanted with him.

Doesn?t this just highlight was an awful, awful signing this was? 3 years???

I?m struggling to think of a worse lwafs free agent signing in the cap era.

Maybe Jeff finger?