Guilt Trip
Well-known member
Florida blows a 3rd period lead. Leafs have 2 games in hand. All is not lost and other good teams blow leads.
2024-25 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion
- Thread starter herman
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herman
Well-known member
Marner has played ~1300 more minutes in this time span and scored 10 fewer GWGs. Again my contention isn’t that Marner isn’t good, it’s that he’s not the type of player on which I’d want to be spending the money he’s asking for. Great scorers don’t need high dollar playmaking. And if the Leafs roster actually did what Berube has been asking, they don’t even need to be elite shooters because we’d be forcing OZ turnovers and getting counter rush chances more regularly and just cramming pucks in around goalies. Beautiful Marner style hockey has done jack squat in the playoffs. The series we did win was with ugly goals from point shot tips and Vasy laying eggs.
These are all smaller players but the thing that makes them successful is that they play inside contact.
Bullfrog
Active member
I feel very triggered. Probably won't sleep tonight.Totally agree on this. Marner is one of the best to ever play in Toronto. Yet the team needs proper architecture at a capped cost. And this building doesn't have the strength to rise past a certain height based on how it's main pillars are constructed.
A player like Bennett provides a pillar the Leafs construction needs. Or even sprinkled across multiple players.... like at the Knies and Tanev level.
I guess you feel trolled? That's funny bud.
In those 1300 more minutes, Marner played 850 more minutes shorthanded 1:31 per game vs Nylander's 12 seconds/game. Nylander could sit on the bench resting up for his next shift while Marner expended more energy to kill penalties and defend.
Marner was also first call on defending leads with his 200 ft game vs Nylander's 100 ft game which ate into his minutes. Marner scored 10 fewer GWGs but set up more GWGs and did more defensively.
I'll take the guy who plays a 200 ft game, scored 136 more points and his +/- is about 100 better than Nylander every day of the week. You're getting top notch effort & play in both ends of the ice 20 mins per night from Marner while Nylander flirts with about half that depending on his mood or headspace while avoiding hitting and blocking shots. That is why Marner is worth more money.
Sounds like Hans Christian Anderson wishful thinking that eludes the facts:
2023 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR | Hockey-Reference.com
2023 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR
www.hockey-reference.com
The Leafs leading scorer in that series over Tampa (as he has led in overall playoff scoring since he got to Toronto) was
Mitch Marner
6GP 2G 9A 11Pts +9
He led the team in +/- as well.
"Beautiful Marner style hockey" significantly helped to win the series (not "jack squat").
Marner scored or assisted in 48% of the Leafs goals in that series.
Nylander
6GP 2G 5A 7Pts -2
+/- difference of 11 in a 6 game series - I would think that is probably beyond any imaginable margin of error.
The 200 ft vs 100 ft game difference - affects what happens in the other end of the ice that doesn't show up in points stats.
EDIT: Nylander was on for 8 of the 15 ES GA (53%), Marner 1 ES GA (7%)
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Not necessarily. They said we want someone willing to sign a deal.
A definite the sky is falling vibe. I don't know, they will likely finish 2-3 in the Atlantic and have another hard-fought first-round matchup. Hopefully, our goalie and D can make up some of the shortfalls of previous years. I would like to think this is the best D and G the core has had. Is the core good enough? No, but our D and G are better this year.
herman
Well-known member
They finally let Nylander PK last season, and he led the team in SHG.
I think I will also add, defense is a team stat and I don't think there's any coach that will argue against the point that wingers are the least important in that equation; goal scoring, while part of a team game, really comes down to an individual's capability. I'll repeat my offseason opinion that you can get good winger defense for much cheaper.
2023 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR | Hockey-Reference.com
2023 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR
The Leafs leading scorer in that series over Tampa (as he has led in overall playoff scoring since he got to Toronto) was
Mitch Marner
6GP 2G 9A 11Pts +9
He led the team in +/- as well.
"Beautiful Marner style hockey" significantly helped to win the series (not "jack squat").
Marner scored or assisted in 48% of the Leafs goals in that series.
Nylander
6GP 2G 5A 7Pts -2
+/- difference of 11 in a 6 game series - I would think that is probably beyond any imaginable margin of error.
The 200 ft vs 100 ft game difference - affects what happens in the other end of the ice that doesn't show up in points stats.
EDIT: Nylander was on for 8 of the 15 ES GA (53%), Marner 1 ES GA (7%)
Not going to worry about this; I already said Marner is better than Nylander overall. The Tampa series was an aberration in the history of this core and playstyle because Vasy got leaky and our Powerplay finally did something in the playoffs. My statement was a reflection of my recollection that the Leafs started scoring in non-Leafy ways (point shots for tips, breakaways).
At the end of the day, it's fine with me if we retain Marner (12.5-13) unless he's using the media to jack up the cap hit to 14+. I think he can eventually adjust to a more direct game (he plays that way on the PK already). It's also fine with me if he walks and we spend that money elsewhere on real centres.
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Pacioretty would be a big boost to the bottom of the line-up come playoff time. Ditto for Hakanpaa on D but I'm obviously significantly less confident of him coming through.
herman
Well-known member
The reasons behind the Maple Leafs' March struggles, and the adjustments needed ahead of the playoffs
Well, the Maple Leafs’ annual March dip has officially arrived. The team trudging through a stretch of mediocre hockey each March has become an annual tradition of sorts with this core. March 2022: 8-5-1 (three-game win streak to end the month) March 2023: 7-6-1 March 2024: 8-6-0 (two-game win...
mapleleafshotstove.com
I really hope the PK turns it around. On paper that more than anything is probably the biggest improvement right now than any other aspect of the line-up.The reasons behind the Maple Leafs' March struggles, and the adjustments needed ahead of the playoffs
Well, the Maple Leafs’ annual March dip has officially arrived. The team trudging through a stretch of mediocre hockey each March has become an annual tradition of sorts with this core. March 2022: 8-5-1 (three-game win streak to end the month) March 2023: 7-6-1 March 2024: 8-6-0 (two-game win...
I also think it might be time to take Knies off of the penalty kill. They tried it last season too and it only lasted a few months. Think he's got potential there eventually but right now there's just better options.
Lorentz has played about half as much PK time as Knies and Matthews since January 1st but his on-ice numbers are like ridiculously better. 67 CA/60 vs. about 120 CA/60 for Knies and Matthews. 3.31 xGA/60 for Lorentz while Knies is at 8.73 and Matthews 12.53. And Lorentz hasn't been on the ice for a single 4v5 goal since Dec. 23rd while Knies and Matthews have each been on for 7 in 2025. Like I'm not expecting Lorentz's numbers to stay like that with increased responsibility obviously but what else does he have to do to earn more minutes there especially while others are struggling?
PK pairings for me would be like Marner-Laughton, Lorentz-Kampf, and then Jarnkrok with maybe Marner again if they want to swing that or I guess Matthews if they want to keep trotting him out there.
herman
Well-known member
I don't blame coaching for the personnel not playing the system well, but I can blame them for this deployment.
We have enough forward bodies to stop using Matthews-Marner as PK1; I get that they're good, but they're paid to score in overwhelming fashion, not be Phillip Danault or Jordan Staal. Sure would hate to see their wheels fall off in the spring after less than 1 playoff series because they used all their gas doing leisure skates for P1/P2 and turning it on for P3 every game, while getting all the prime PK/PP time. The bottom 6 forwards play 10ish minutes a game; let them use their energy and keep them engaged and motivated and have an actually aggressive PK.
Save Matthews for the after PK shift so he can tilt a tired unit with Nylander and Tavares or something.
Wow, that's some cautious skating by Hakanpaa. Be shocked if he plays if this is where he's at.
I like how ugly Pac can play. I think we could use his and Domi's grit come playoff time.
Guilt Trip
Well-known member
Yes necessarily. Struddy played in the NHL and that's how he would take it.