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2024-25 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

Marner has been the best player on the team this year and it's not even close. He busts his butt every PK too and gives it full effort pretty much every game.

You may not like his media attitude or his father or his agent or whatever.

Mitch Marner is not what ails the Toronto Maple Leafs and if he walks the team will be worse not better.
 
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Chris said:
Nylander last night after the game: "I don’t think that we get to our game until at some point in the third period."

Berube: "They need to make their mind up in the room about the importance of the start of the game and 60 minutes of urgency"

This has been a thing for 8 years (plus) with this player group. They don't start games on time, they let opponents dictate the game, they play down to weaker opponents. Oh sure, they'll turn it on for 10 or 15 minutes (or maybe a whole period) and save some games, but it's a character flaw that isn't going away no matter who the coach is. The lack of urgency shows up throughout the games - the weak starts, the poor PPs where they lose all the puck battles or settle for perimeter play, the defensive zone where they fail to clear pucks.

Maybe they get lucky and ride a hot goalie to a series win (or two) but I this looks more like an early first round exit team to me, especially if they play one of the Florida teams.
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Not totally buying this start on time stuff. The play for 60 mins, def yes is an issue. In the last 8 games, they've held the lead, and by multiple goals sometimes in 7 of them. In 6 of them they scored 1st. That's a good sign. Giving up the lead, not so good. That's what they need to clean up. Since 4 Nations, Leafs are 9/30 on the PP. Problem is they're only 66% on the PK. It's not all doom and gloom. 16 games to get it together and they will. I think the goalies will be better and the D will get back in form. Woll had a very good game in Utah but wasn't in peak form for a few games before that. He still won 3 of 4 since 4 Nations. Stolarz hasn't been any better and has lost his last 4 starts and 4 after winning his first 3 after 4 Nations. He's letting in stoppable goals which has been strange for both guys this season. As for the D, Tanev only played 16 mins last night so he's not up to speed yet. He will no doubt and then the pairings will be solidified again. Jarnkrok is trying to find his way and the same with the new guys.
 
Chris said:
Oh, I bet there are some issues. I think the realization that management basically wanted to swap out Marner for Rantanen was a real wake-up call that rattled Marner and probably his buddies (esp Matthews, I don't think Nylander cares about any of it). He hasn't looked the same since that news came out.

At this point, I don't think Marner will re-sign with the Leafs unless maybe (and even this is not a guarantee) (1) the Leafs offer more $ than anyone else, and (2) the team somehow pulls together and makes a real deep playoff run - at least to the conference finals. Maybe then he'll feel like it's worth staying. Though maybe even in that case the Leafs decide to part ways.
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Like Struddy said on Overdrive. By asking 16 to waive, which is what they did regardless of how it was presented, the Leafs basically told Marner we think Rants is better then you. Anyway lots of hockey to go before that scenario so enjoy the ride to the playoffs.
 
Guilt Trip said:
Not totally buying this start on time stuff. The play for 60 mins, def yes is an issue. In the last 8 games, they've held the lead, and by multiple goals sometimes in 7 of them. In 6 of them they scored 1st. That's a good sign. Giving up the lead, not so good. That's what they need to clean up. Since 4 Nations, Leafs are 9/30 on the PP. Problem is they're only 66% on the PK. It's not all doom and gloom. 16 games to get it together and they will. I think the goalies will be better and the D will get back in form. Woll had a very good game in Utah but wasn't in peak form for a few games before that. He still won 3 of 4 since 4 Nations. Stolarz hasn't been any better and has lost his last 4 starts and 4 after winning his first 3 after 4 Nations. He's letting in stoppable goals which has been strange for both guys this season. As for the D, Tanev only played 16 mins last night so he's not up to speed yet. He will no doubt and then the pairings will be solidified again. Jarnkrok is trying to find his way and the same with the new guys.
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You don't have to buy it, but the players and coaches are talking about it and it's been an issue for years now. Deny it if you want though.

Jarnkrok, come on - he's never been close to being an impact player in the playoffs. He's ok during the regular season but a non-factor at crunch time (sound familiar? fits right in). Better hope Laughton is the one that finds his way by the time the real games start.
 
Chris said:
You don't have to buy it, but the players and coaches are talking about it and it's been an issue for years now. Deny it if you want though.

Jarnkrok, come on - he's never been close to being an impact player in the playoffs. He's ok during the regular season but a non-factor at crunch time (sound familiar? fits right in). Better hope Laughton is the one that finds his way by the time the real games start.
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I'm not a fan of Jarnkrok and don't expect anything out of him. Why I mentioned him is, he's in the lineup so he's having an effect on whatever line he plays on.
I have no doubt that Laughton will find his way and so will Carlo who was good last night.
 
Who would you rather have for next year? Marner or Bennett and Ehlers?

I am not anti-Marner, but I really do wonder if that 14 mill is better spent on two players than one.
 
Bill_Berg said:
Who would you rather have for next year? Marner or Bennett and Ehlers?

I am not anti-Marner, but I really do wonder if that 14 mill is better spent on two players than one.
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Totally agree on this. Marner is one of the best to ever play in Toronto. Yet the team needs proper architecture at a capped cost. And this building doesn't have the strength to rise past a certain height based on how it's main pillars are constructed.

A player like Bennett provides a pillar the Leafs construction needs. Or even sprinkled across multiple players.... like at the Knies and Tanev level.




Bullfrog said:
You're just trolling, ya?

Like: "hee hee, let's ask a really absurd question for funsies", right?
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I guess you feel trolled? That's funny bud. 🤣
 
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Arn said:
Let’s play a little game.

Say the Leafs had retained Keefe. And built this same roster. Including the same moves at the deadline.

Would the Leafs be higher or lower in the standings?

I’d have them down as a good chance at the Presidents Trophy.

I’ve still no idea how they’ll fare in the playoffs, but I’m not optimistic it’ll actually be any better playing this Berube style with this roster.
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They’d absolutely have better record under Keefe. As much as he didn’t feel like the right guy to get the team over the hump, he clearly understood what he had on his roster - a bunch of highly skilled creative players - and he let them lean into their strengths.

Berube, on the other hand, is trying to get them to play a much lunch pail style of game, which hopefully pays dividends in the playoffs, but definitely plays into their weaknesses instead of their strengths. That worries me some, as we’ve seen this movie before. I’m concerned that Berube is going to turn out to be Carlyle 2.0.
 
cw said:
But Laughton and Carlo are included in your Puckpedia roster with the same assets that were also used to theoretically get Rantanen so your roster is impossible because the same assets can't be traded twice by the Leafs to obtain different players. Because Leafs have very limited assets and Cowan was also used theoretically to get Rantanen, the Leafs don't have anything else like the assets they gave up to get Laughton & Carlo. So your roster is unrealistic on that level beyond some of the trades or contracts you proposed that also look unrealistic.

It is virtually impossible for the Leafs to add Rantanen and keep Marner and most of their roster that currently lacks the cap space to have 23 players. Something has to give. If I'm Marner looking at that attempt, the most likely plan looked like get Rantanen and keep everyone else but Marner. A constant criticism has been the core 4 had the Leafs cap usage consuming too much for top forwards and now they're adding a 5th (with a reduction in Tavares salary)? No way. What did Nylander say when they asked him to waive his no trade so they could get Rantanen? Ditto for Matthews? Crickets.

Which may explain why Marner would not commit that he would be re-signing during his post trade deadline media scrum. Treliving has floated maybe trading Marner since last spring. Some in the media declared Marner not being in the opening day lineup a certainty. Treliving did not declare Marner a priority to re-sign like he did for Matthews & Nylander. His agent probably said "I bet we can find a GM who really wants you July 1st. Lets check that out and see how you feel then. The Leafs GM whose actions reveal that he doesn't really want you would then have to explain how he lost the teams top regular season and playoffs scorer over the last 9 seasons who had declared he wanted to re-sign and that he lost him for nothing."

Maybe there are some issues in the locker room over this ...
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Ok, I heard your criticisms and made corrections. I reversed the Carlo and Rantanen trades. Kampf was put on waivers and was sent to the minors because no one would take his contract because of the bonus money owed. Knies refused my 2-years @$4m bride deal so he held out and isn't on the roster. Marner signed a $13.5m contract extension. Tavares took $3m x 8 years to stay on the team but there's a little wiggle room there.

Keep in mind this would only be a cap crunch for one year. The cap is going up to $104m for 26-27, providing another $8.5m with most of your players under contract.

 
I just value hypercarry offensive drivers* more in terms of dedicated Cap spend. These are players that can transition the puck, create openings, pass, and shoot all on their own; they only need cheapo support for forechecking and pushing pucks to the right areas.

I think generating consistent offense is severely undervalued in a defense wins championships paradigm (moralization of defense), when scoring is usually <10% of a games recorded shot attempts.

Marner is a better overall player than Nylander, not by 3-4M but better nonetheless. Still, when either of them have dogwater games, they can still create one or two moments at critical times to break a game in the Leafs’ favour. The main difference is Marner tends to need someone else to also have such a moment at the same time, whereas Nylander (and a healthy Matthews to some degree) is agnostic to what his linemates are doing, so the likelihood of a breakthrough is in the favour of the soloist.

McDavid and MacKinnon have that solo takeover ability and the wherewithal to dictate the game due to their ability to layer puck control with their above average speed and processing ability. I think I’d like to save the heavy cap hits for that sort of ability going forward.
 
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