Contracts for the Big-3

[Kin]

I try not to get sentimental about these sorts of things.  How I view Shanahan in the future isn?t relevant (or how I view him today). 

It's relevant to how I see Shanahan and how I talk about him and, as is very relevant here, whether or not I choose to make fun of him for such transparent hypocrisy. Whether or not that sort of thing is an effective negotiating tactic isn't particularly relevant to me. It benefits a man little to gain the whole world at the price of his soul...but for a slight discount on Nylander's contract?

 

[sickbeast]

It sounds like Shanahan is sending a message to Nylander (and by extension Matthews and Marner) that he expects them to give the team a "hometown discount" or else he will be unable to keep them together.  It kind of sounds like he is saying to Nylander in particular that he can either take what the Leafs are offering him, or he will be traded.  That's got to be a tough pill to swallow for the players.  We'll see how this all plays out.

 

[Frank E]

I try not to get sentimental about these sorts of things.  How I view Shanahan in the future isn?t relevant (or how I view him today). 

It's relevant to how I see Shanahan and how I talk about him and, as is very relevant here, whether or not I choose to make fun of him for such transparent hypocrisy. Whether or not that sort of thing is an effective negotiating tactic isn't particularly relevant to me. It benefits a man little to gain the whole world at the price of his soul...but for a slight discount on Nylander's contract?

I'd like to chime in here, I'm not sure that Shanahan is necessarily being hypocritical.  I think he might be daring the Nylander camp...calling their bluff.  He's not saying that signing an offer sheet is bad, he's actually saying that maybe Nylander doesn't want to be a TML.  That's not hypocritical, Shanahan obviously didn't care for being a Devil at the time he signed his offer sheet, given the current state of his negotiation.

Shanahan has a lot more information about this negotiation than we do, so I still think that he's responding to some specific statement/position/stance of Nylander's representation. 

 

[BermudaBudsFan]

I try not to get sentimental about these sorts of things.  How I view Shanahan in the future isn?t relevant (or how I view him today). 

It's relevant to how I see Shanahan and how I talk about him and, as is very relevant here, whether or not I choose to make fun of him for such transparent hypocrisy. Whether or not that sort of thing is an effective negotiating tactic isn't particularly relevant to me. It benefits a man little to gain the whole world at the price of his soul...but for a slight discount on Nylander's contract?

Sure thing.  If the goal is to go after Shanahan then mission accomplished.  And I get it ? you want Nylander signed.  I do too.  But because I don?t really know what?s going on I?m not at this stage going to criticize him, Dubas, Gross, Michael Nylander or anyone else.  There will either be a deal or not and I will evaluate then.  I would like him here and I think they have a better chance of winning with him.  But it hasn?t played out yet.

 

[sickbeast]

Apparently Shanhan's "Please other people with other interests" comment was a direct shot at Nylander's father.  I'm still waiting for that apology, @CarltonTheBear.

 

[Kin]

I'd like to chime in here, I'm not sure that Shanahan is necessarily being hypocritical.  I think he might be daring the Nylander camp...calling their bluff.  He's not saying that signing an offer sheet is bad, he's actually saying that maybe Nylander doesn't want to be a TML.  That's not hypocritical, Shanahan obviously didn't care for being a Devil at the time he signed his offer sheet, given the current state of his negotiation.

Shanahan has a lot more information about this negotiation than we do, so I still think that he's responding to some specific statement/position/stance of Nylander's representation.

Yeah, guy. I heard you the first time. Shanahan's responding to something secret and sinister Nylander's camp did, Dubas is responding to Nylander's broken promise of taking a haircut so they can sign Tavares...I'm sure there are all manner of nefarious things Nylander's agents are doing in the dark. I, on the other hand, can only react to what I've got in front of me and Shanahan weighing in on this referencing his supposed selflessness in Detroit and not what he did in New Jersey rings that bell for me no matter what his objective or what Nylander may or may not have done.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Apparently Shanhan's "Please other people with other interests" comment was a direct shot at Nylander's father.  I'm still waiting for that apology, @CarltonTheBear.

Yeah, I think I'll wait for somebody other than a guy on reddit named PieEatingJabroni to report that before believing it.

 

[Kin]

If the goal is to go after Shanahan then mission accomplished.

The goal, as it were, is to express my opinions on the things and people associated with the Toronto Maple Leafs and the goings on with the club. The club President said something I found ridiculous, hence ridicule. I'd react that way regardless of my feelings on Nylander and his contract.
 

But because I don?t really know what?s going on I?m not at this stage going to criticize him, Dubas, Gross, Michael Nylander or anyone else.  There will either be a deal or not and I will evaluate then.  I would like him here and I think they have a better chance of winning with him.  But it hasn?t played out yet.

Again, my interest in this isn't tactical. I think you can weigh in on the ethics/morality/intellectual honesty of what someone involved in negotiations says without being overly concerned with the outcome of said negotiations.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Anyone else think this gets done in the next 22 minutes? 

 

[Kin]

Apparently Shanhan's "Please other people with other interests" comment was a direct shot at Nylander's father.  I'm still waiting for that apology, @CarltonTheBear.

Why in the world would Shanahan saying that about Nylander's father constitute something that you're owed an apology for? Carlton didn't call you out because he didn't think anyone in the world didn't like Michael Nylander, but because the tenor and tone of the conversation wasn't helped by how you talked about Michael Nylander.

Shanahan taking a similar shot at Nylander, which if it is what he did strikes me as spectacularly bad form on his part, in no way contradicts that.

 

[Zee]

Anyone else think this gets done in the next 22 minutes?

I saw Dubas on the phone and taking notes, must be the deals [emoji57]

 

[Frank E]

I'd like to chime in here, I'm not sure that Shanahan is necessarily being hypocritical.  I think he might be daring the Nylander camp...calling their bluff.  He's not saying that signing an offer sheet is bad, he's actually saying that maybe Nylander doesn't want to be a TML.  That's not hypocritical, Shanahan obviously didn't care for being a Devil at the time he signed his offer sheet, given the current state of his negotiation.

Shanahan has a lot more information about this negotiation than we do, so I still think that he's responding to some specific statement/position/stance of Nylander's representation.

Yeah, guy. I heard you the first time. Shanahan's responding to something secret and sinister Nylander's camp did, Dubas is responding to Nylander's broken promise of taking a haircut so they can sign Tavares...I'm sure there are all manner of nefarious things Nylander's agents are doing in the dark. I, on the other hand, can only react to what I've got in front of me and Shanahan weighing in on this referencing his supposed selflessness in Detroit and not what he did in New Jersey rings that bell for me no matter what his objective or what Nylander may or may not have done.

I won't refer to you as "guy", because I'll be more respectful today, given the season opener and all, and we've been playing here for years.

But really Shanahan does have a lot of the information that we don't have, so I'm comfortable saying that Shanahan has a lot more to go off on...nothing nefarious, just more information.

Whatever your Dubas statement has to do with what I'm saying, I'm not sure.

And whatever was going on with the Devils and Shanahan's ability to get a deal done with them really may not have anything to do with what's going on today, no matter how many times you want to bring it up.  Maybe we can make comparisons later, if we get more information.

 

[Kin]

But really Shanahan does have a lot of the information that we don't have, so I'm comfortable saying that Shanahan has a lot more to go off on...nothing nefarious, just more information.

Whatever your Dubas statement has to do with what I'm saying, I'm not sure.

And whatever was going on with the Devils and Shanahan's ability to get a deal done with them really may not have anything to do with what's going on today, no matter how many times you want to bring it up.  Maybe we can make comparisons later, if we get more information.

Again, my interest in this isn't tactical. I think you can weigh in on the ethics/morality/intellectual honesty of what someone involved in negotiations says without being overly concerned with the outcome of said negotiations.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/DamoSpin/status/1047827176051990528

 

[cabber24]

So Shanahan didn't have a stellar 03-04. Then the lockout happened and the cap came in. He signs a lower contract because of: age, performance and a salary cap OR for the better good of the team?

He did go from $6.5M to under $3M and had a couple awesome seasons under the lower contract.

I should also note Shanahan won his cups during the pre-cap era and the "lower contract" I have identified was post-Stanley cups. So maybe he should ask the kids to take less post 3 Stanley Cups to actually relate to them.

 

[Coco-puffs]

So Shanahan didn't have a stellar 03-04. Then the lockout happened and the cap came in. He signs a lower contract because of: age, performance and a salary cap OR for the better good of the team?

He did go from $6.5M to under $3M and had a couple awesome seasons under the lower contract.

I should also note Shanahan won his cups during the pre-cap era and the "lower contract" I have identified was post-Stanley cups. So maybe he should ask the kids to take less post 3 Stanley Cups to actually relate to them.

There is no doubt that it was a bad analogy.  However, its not like there aren't cases that you can look to where it HAS happened.  Stamkos and Kucherov both took discounts. 

Many Golden State Warriors players have taken discounts as well (although they are in a soft cap situation, so its a bit different)

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So Shanahan didn't have a stellar 03-04. Then the lockout happened and the cap came in. He signs a lower contract because of: age, performance and a salary cap OR for the better good of the team?

He did go from $6.5M to under $3M and had a couple awesome seasons under the lower contract.

I should also note Shanahan won his cups during the pre-cap era and the "lower contract" I have identified was post-Stanley cups. So maybe he should ask the kids to take less post 3 Stanley Cups to actually relate to them.

When they won the Cup in 96/97, the Wings had 3 players in the top-12 of salaries (Fedorov, Yzerman, Shanahan). Shanny was making more money than Gretzky, Sakic, and Modano.

That offseason Fedorov signed a 6-year, $38mil offer sheet from the Hurricanes. Did the Wings tell Fedorov to buzz off, because he was being selfish and not being a team player? Nope. They matched the offer sheet and ended up paying Fedorov $28,000,000 IN THE FIRST YEAR OF THAT CONTRACT (seriously, read about that whole ordeal here).

 

[CarltonTheBear]

There is no doubt that it was a bad analogy.  However, its not like there aren't cases that you can look to where it HAS happened.  Stamkos and Kucherov both took discounts.

It's very well known though that their "discounts" were only able to happen because of Tampa's tax situation. They're still essentially getting paid market value after tax.

 

[dappleganger]

So Shanahan didn't have a stellar 03-04. Then the lockout happened and the cap came in. He signs a lower contract because of: age, performance and a salary cap OR for the better good of the team?

He did go from $6.5M to under $3M and had a couple awesome seasons under the lower contract.

I should also note Shanahan won his cups during the pre-cap era and the "lower contract" I have identified was post-Stanley cups. So maybe he should ask the kids to take less post 3 Stanley Cups to actually relate to them.

There is no doubt that it was a bad analogy.  However, its not like there aren't cases that you can look to where it HAS happened.  Stamkos and Kucherov both took discounts. 

Many Golden State Warriors players have taken discounts as well (although they are in a soft cap situation, so its a bit different)

I don't buy the NBA players taking less money. Taking $26m per year instead of $32m for a chance to win doesn't seem like much of a concession to me, even though it is millions of dollars. Take into consideration their $10m+ yearly shoe endorsements, NBA players can make in one year, what a fortunate NHL'er can make in a career.

 

[Coco-puffs]

There is no doubt that it was a bad analogy.  However, its not like there aren't cases that you can look to where it HAS happened.  Stamkos and Kucherov both took discounts.

It's very well known though that their "discounts" were only able to happen because of Tampa's tax situation. They're still essentially getting paid market value after tax.

I'm sure the teams in favourable tax states like to use that as an argument to take less, but if I'm an agent I'm asking for a NMC in return.  Only Stamkos got that.  Guys who took less on other teams (Ryan Ellis) didn't get them.

Kucherov only has a NMC for a few of those years- he could get traded and lose that tax advantage.  Again, you get into the same argument people are using to stick up for Nylander- that the sport is a business and taking one for the team may not be reciprocated.  Those guys still took one for the team.

Furthermore, do you think a player compares himself to the rest of the league based on their after tax salary?  Nope.  It might make some impact when weighing two offers as a UFA but I doubt it makes as big a deal as many think.

All three of those guys took less because they are on good teams and want to win.  I wouldn't have blamed them for asking for their maximum value- and I won't blame Nylander for doing the same.  They should look after themeselves.  As I said before, I just hope he (and Marner and Matthews) takes a bit of a discount.  They don't have to, but I hope they do.