Coronavirus

[CarltonTheBear]

Can we trust our fellow citizens to use their judgement?

Of course not.

 

[bustaheims]

Outside for kids in school, we don't require proof of any other vaccinations. I think having it on your record with Ontario Health should be enough in 99.9% of cases - and, in the cases where it isn't, I don't think having any sort of proof of vaccination will stop stupid people from being stupid.

I'm more torn on mandatory vaccinations for everyone. I see why it might be necessary, but I also see why many would consider it government over-reach. I think certain occupations should require it (teachers, doctors, nurses, PSWs, etc. - anything where you deal with children, sick people, the elderly, and so on) and all students between 12 and 18 should be required to attend in person schooling in the public system. Outside of that, as much as I think anti-vaxxers and others who are citing misinformation to justify their hesitancy are abandoning the social contract, I don't think forcing the shot into their arms would be a step in the right direction for our society/country/etc.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Outside for kids in school, we don't require proof of any other vaccinations. I think having it on your record with Ontario Health should be enough in 99.9% of cases - and, in the cases where it isn't, I don't think having any sort of proof of vaccination will stop stupid people from being stupid.

I'm more torn on mandatory vaccinations for everyone. I see why it might be necessary, but I also see why many would consider it government over-reach. I think certain occupations should require it (teachers, doctors, nurses, PSWs, etc. - anything where you deal with children, sick people, the elderly, and so on) and all students between 12 and 18 should be required to attend in person schooling in the public system. Outside of that, as much as I think anti-vaxxers and others who are citing misinformation to justify their hesitancy are abandoning the social contract, I don't think forcing the shot into their arms would be a step in the right direction for our society/country/etc.

I don't think the popular opinion is "mandatory vaccinations for everyone". It's mandatory vaccinations for those teachers, doctors, nurses, PSWs like you said, and vaccine passports for certain places that could be deemed high risk. That way when the 4th wave hits, instead of completely shutting down places like gyms and restaurants for the millionth time we're only shutting out people who make their own personal decision to not vaccinate themselves.

 

[Bullfrog]

Can we trust our fellow citizens to use their judgement?

Of course not.

Ya. I think you're correct.

 

[Highlander]

There is no such thing as common sense.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/l_stone/status/1425287195385081858

 

[Bender]

Outside for kids in school, we don't require proof of any other vaccinations. I think having it on your record with Ontario Health should be enough in 99.9% of cases - and, in the cases where it isn't, I don't think having any sort of proof of vaccination will stop stupid people from being stupid.

I'm more torn on mandatory vaccinations for everyone. I see why it might be necessary, but I also see why many would consider it government over-reach. I think certain occupations should require it (teachers, doctors, nurses, PSWs, etc. - anything where you deal with children, sick people, the elderly, and so on) and all students between 12 and 18 should be required to attend in person schooling in the public system. Outside of that, as much as I think anti-vaxxers and others who are citing misinformation to justify their hesitancy are abandoning the social contract, I don't think forcing the shot into their arms would be a step in the right direction for our society/country/etc.

There's a difference between forcing them to do something and using a stick and inconvenience to do that thing. Don't want a vaccine? Ok, show proof of negative test 24-48hrs prior for entry into a space with indoor crowds.

 

[Joe S.]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

 

[louisstamos]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

My understanding is while the Delta variant does have a quicker incubation period than COVID classic, it's still minimum 2-3 days before someone can pass the viral load.  24-48 hours *should* be fine.

 

[L K]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

The problem is the accuracy of rapid tests is not great. 

I don't have a problem with non-mandatory vaccination as long as we implement a vaccination passport program.  I'm really tired.  Every day I get to listen to patient yell at the nurses I work with when they ask about vaccination status. It's only the non-vaccinated ones doing it.  I'm tired.  We are short staffed.  The province in genuinely in deep trouble post-pandemic because of the impending nursing exodus. I'm tired of bending over backwards to avoid offending this crowd.

 

[Guilt Trip]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

The problem is the accuracy of rapid tests is not great. 

I don't have a problem with non-mandatory vaccination as long as we implement a vaccination passport program.  I'm really tired.  Every day I get to listen to patient yell at the nurses I work with when they ask about vaccination status. It's only the non-vaccinated ones doing it.  I'm tired.  We are short staffed.  The province in genuinely in deep trouble post-pandemic because of the impending nursing exodus. I'm tired of bending over backwards to avoid offending this crowd.

Must be really frustrating for you. Agree with your view on non-mandatory vax and a vax passport. Thanks for all that you do, I know I would have offended many by now!

 

[OldTimeHockey]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

The problem is the accuracy of rapid tests is not great. 

I don't have a problem with non-mandatory vaccination as long as we implement a vaccination passport program.  I'm really tired.  Every day I get to listen to patient yell at the nurses I work with when they ask about vaccination status. It's only the non-vaccinated ones doing it.  I'm tired.  We are short staffed.  The province in genuinely in deep trouble post-pandemic because of the impending nursing exodus. I'm tired of bending over backwards to avoid offending this crowd.

I agree 100%. I cannot imagine the stress on people in the health industry. I know personally of a half dozen nurses that are leaving the profession once they are done their final service for the greater good.
I applaud and thank each of you for helping all of us through this. It is completely unfair that you or your coworkers have to put up with the selfish children that we have in society. We

 

[bustaheims]

The problem is the accuracy of rapid tests is not great. 

I don't have a problem with non-mandatory vaccination as long as we implement a vaccination passport program.  I'm really tired.  Every day I get to listen to patient yell at the nurses I work with when they ask about vaccination status. It's only the non-vaccinated ones doing it.  I'm tired.  We are short staffed.  The province in genuinely in deep trouble post-pandemic because of the impending nursing exodus. I'm tired of bending over backwards to avoid offending this crowd.

At this point, I'm not sure I'd be able to care about not offending them. They need a harsh dose of reality, and who better to give it to them than a medical professional who can explain in excruciating details why they're wrong, the consequences of getting COVID, how they're harming themselves, etc. A lot of these anti-vax idiots are very much "me first" types. Gotta scare them into doing the right thing by framing it as the best choice for their self interest/protection/advancement/whatever, rather than the public good.

 

[Bender]

The problem is the accuracy of rapid tests is not great. 

I don't have a problem with non-mandatory vaccination as long as we implement a vaccination passport program.  I'm really tired.  Every day I get to listen to patient yell at the nurses I work with when they ask about vaccination status. It's only the non-vaccinated ones doing it.  I'm tired.  We are short staffed.  The province in genuinely in deep trouble post-pandemic because of the impending nursing exodus. I'm tired of bending over backwards to avoid offending this crowd.

At this point, I'm not sure I'd be able to care about not offending them. They need a harsh dose of reality, and who better to give it to them than a medical professional who can explain in excruciating details why they're wrong, the consequences of getting COVID, how they're harming themselves, etc. A lot of these anti-vax idiots are very much "me first" types. Gotta scare them into doing the right thing by framing it as the best choice for their self interest/protection/advancement/whatever, rather than the public good.

That sounds good in theory but ultimately the nurses and docs still have to deal with the patients. It's not an enviable position: Either you lay it on the line for them and they freak out, or you hold your tongue to insanity because it may help the process along and you can actually somewhat get through your day, or at least that's how imagine it.

 

[Bender]

But is 24-48 hrs even good enough? Couldn?t you have caught it on the way to the venue and not know yet? A lot can happen in a day or 2.

I would think only rapid tests would be worthwhile in those scenarios.

I get it, I mean I think that's the only way you can position it though. You can't restrict outright I don't think but you can put very inconvenient barriers.

 

[bustaheims]

That sounds good in theory but ultimately the nurses and docs still have to deal with the patients. It's not an enviable position: Either you lay it on the line for them and they freak out, or you hold your tongue to insanity because it may help the process along and you can actually somewhat get through your day, or at least that's how imagine it.

That's fair, and likely has a lot of truth to it - but, I have to imagine the stress of dealing with patients who are freaking out is preferable to the stress that comes from dealing with patients who are clinging to life or dying. Most doctors, I assume, would use every avenue possible to minimize the latter group.

 

[L K]

That sounds good in theory but ultimately the nurses and docs still have to deal with the patients. It's not an enviable position: Either you lay it on the line for them and they freak out, or you hold your tongue to insanity because it may help the process along and you can actually somewhat get through your day, or at least that's how imagine it.

That's fair, and likely has a lot of truth to it - but, I have to imagine the stress of dealing with patients who are freaking out is preferable to the stress that comes from dealing with patients who are clinging to life or dying. Most doctors, I assume, would use every avenue possible to minimize the latter group.

Yes-ish?

There is no question that the end of life care is emotionally exhausting.  I really haven't had to deal with many of those conversations as I'm working at the front end of the hospital stays for COVID cases.  We certainly have had covid-arrests in the ER.  I've done a few shifts doing backup coverage on COVID wards but not remotely to the same extent of some of my colleagues.

It's hard watching people die.  It's hard watching families grieve through windows because they can't be in the room due to visitation capacity or doing it through facetime...or though full PPE.  It's hard having the conversation that Mom/Dad/Grandma/Aunt/Son/Etc didn't make it.  That there was something they could have done to prevent being in that scenario but that there was nothing that could have been done once they got the virus. 

That being said, having someone scream and spit and call you a shill.  Yelling about COVID being a hoax or screaming about how stupid my colleagues in the ER are.  That's a level of draining that everyone is having a hard time with.  I've read more psuedoscience journal articles in the last year to catch up on the latest trend of Ivermectin, Hydroxycholorquine, etc. than I have in any previous year because the level of mistrust in the medical system is just through the roof.  We absolutely need to keep advocating to this population because we don't want them to be another mortality statistic but it's honestly getting harder and harder to deal with.  Some of that is absolutely degrees of burnout but this has really been a different animal compared to say the usual naturopathic commentary we use to have on this forum even.  There is real venom toward "the system" and I'm not really sure how we are going to get around that problem.

 

[rdowdall]

That sounds good in theory but ultimately the nurses and docs still have to deal with the patients. It's not an enviable position: Either you lay it on the line for them and they freak out, or you hold your tongue to insanity because it may help the process along and you can actually somewhat get through your day, or at least that's how imagine it.

That's fair, and likely has a lot of truth to it - but, I have to imagine the stress of dealing with patients who are freaking out is preferable to the stress that comes from dealing with patients who are clinging to life or dying. Most doctors, I assume, would use every avenue possible to minimize the latter group.

Yes-ish?

There is no question that the end of life care is emotionally exhausting.  I really haven't had to deal with many of those conversations as I'm working at the front end of the hospital stays for COVID cases.  We certainly have had covid-arrests in the ER.  I've done a few shifts doing backup coverage on COVID wards but not remotely to the same extent of some of my colleagues.

It's hard watching people die.  It's hard watching families grieve through windows because they can't be in the room due to visitation capacity or doing it through facetime...or though full PPE.  It's hard having the conversation that Mom/Dad/Grandma/Aunt/Son/Etc didn't make it.  That there was something they could have done to prevent being in that scenario but that there was nothing that could have been done once they got the virus. 

That being said, having someone scream and spit and call you a shill.  Yelling about COVID being a hoax or screaming about how stupid my colleagues in the ER are.  That's a level of draining that everyone is having a hard time with.  I've read more psuedoscience journal articles in the last year to catch up on the latest trend of Ivermectin, Hydroxycholorquine, etc. than I have in any previous year because the level of mistrust in the medical system is just through the roof.  We absolutely need to keep advocating to this population because we don't want them to be another mortality statistic but it's honestly getting harder and harder to deal with.  Some of that is absolutely degrees of burnout but this has really been a different animal compared to say the usual naturopathic commentary we use to have on this forum even.  There is real venom toward "the system" and I'm not really sure how we are going to get around that problem.

It's a hard question to answer, because I think it falls into the same camp as terrorism.  How do you communicate with someone who believes in something so radically different than you that both parties think the other side is insane?

 

[Bender]

That sounds good in theory but ultimately the nurses and docs still have to deal with the patients. It's not an enviable position: Either you lay it on the line for them and they freak out, or you hold your tongue to insanity because it may help the process along and you can actually somewhat get through your day, or at least that's how imagine it.

That's fair, and likely has a lot of truth to it - but, I have to imagine the stress of dealing with patients who are freaking out is preferable to the stress that comes from dealing with patients who are clinging to life or dying. Most doctors, I assume, would use every avenue possible to minimize the latter group.

Yes-ish?

There is no question that the end of life care is emotionally exhausting.  I really haven't had to deal with many of those conversations as I'm working at the front end of the hospital stays for COVID cases.  We certainly have had covid-arrests in the ER.  I've done a few shifts doing backup coverage on COVID wards but not remotely to the same extent of some of my colleagues.

It's hard watching people die.  It's hard watching families grieve through windows because they can't be in the room due to visitation capacity or doing it through facetime...or though full PPE.  It's hard having the conversation that Mom/Dad/Grandma/Aunt/Son/Etc didn't make it.  That there was something they could have done to prevent being in that scenario but that there was nothing that could have been done once they got the virus. 

That being said, having someone scream and spit and call you a shill.  Yelling about COVID being a hoax or screaming about how stupid my colleagues in the ER are.  That's a level of draining that everyone is having a hard time with.  I've read more psuedoscience journal articles in the last year to catch up on the latest trend of Ivermectin, Hydroxycholorquine, etc. than I have in any previous year because the level of mistrust in the medical system is just through the roof.  We absolutely need to keep advocating to this population because we don't want them to be another mortality statistic but it's honestly getting harder and harder to deal with.  Some of that is absolutely degrees of burnout but this has really been a different animal compared to say the usual naturopathic commentary we use to have on this forum even.  There is real venom toward "the system" and I'm not really sure how we are going to get around that problem.

It's a hard question to answer, because I think it falls into the same camp as terrorism.  How do you communicate with someone who believes in something so radically different than you that both parties think the other side is insane?

The science behind how to deal with viruses and vaccines is apolitical but people screaming at doctors really are not. I really do think this is as much a political tribalism on one side issue (vs. the rest of us who are pulling in the same direction to try and end this pandemic) as much as it is an education/critical reasoning issue.

As long as people are willing to die for politics and not trust the science then I don't really think there is much we can do. There are people who still believe it's a hoax with their dying breath. I never in a million years thought I would see the level of mass belief in conspiracy theories or rejection of objective reality that we are witnessing, even in Canada.

 

[Bullfrog]

It's a hard question to answer, because I think it falls into the same camp as terrorism.  How do you communicate with someone who believes in something so radically different than you that both parties think the other side is insane?

I'm not sure if you can, which is sad because science isn't a belief system. It's a systematic mode of inquiry.