Duchene & Turris traded

[bustaheims]

https://twitter.com/DavidAmber/status/927593497514860544

I saw a number of people write that the Turris contract came together pretty quickly, which was a fair assumption to make but it seems like that wasn't the case.

Even a week is pretty quick when compared to the issues Ottawa supposedly had getting an extension signed over the summer. Maybe Dorion just sucks at contract negotiations?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Even a week is pretty quick when compared to the issues Ottawa supposedly had getting an extension signed over the summer. Maybe Dorion just sucks at contract negotiations?

The pressure of holding a 3-way trade up likely made things go a little faster. I do think that there's a legit argument to be made that Turris probably just didn't want to sign in Ottawa, which isn't really that difficult to believe.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

A couple of interesting things about the Turris contract per Capfriendly: 1) doesn't include any no-trade or no-movement clauses and 2) doesn't include any signing bonuses, even in the likely lockout year. That's incredibly rare for a contract like his.

 

[herman]

6/6 in Nashville goes a longer way than whatever Ottawa could offer.

 

[bustaheims]

The pressure of holding a 3-way trade up likely made things go a little faster. I do think that there's a legit argument to be made that Turris probably just didn't want to sign in Ottawa, which isn't really that difficult to believe.

I'm gonna stick with Dorion sucks at negotiations. I don't think Turris signs a contract he's not happy with just to allow a trade to go through, and he seemed pretty happy to stay in Ottawa - at least, until negotiations got underway and there didn't seem to be any movement.

 

[Kin]

Not necessarily.  Just because a guy will sign a particular deal with one team doesn't mean he'll sign it elsewhere.  Maybe he doesn't like it in Ottawa as much as some people would assume.  Maybe he wanted 7/8 years and would have waited for it to happen on the open market this summer instead of taking 6 in Ottawa.

I appreciate the argument you're making here but it does say something about how weird NHL negotiations are that effectively you're saying that Turris may not have really liked it in Ottawa so he was only willing to sign there for as long as he possibly could.

 

[bustaheims]

I appreciate the argument you're making here but it does say something about how weird NHL negotiations are that effectively you're saying that Turris may not have really liked it in Ottawa so he was only willing to sign there for as long as he possibly could.

That's a big part of the reason I'm having trouble buying into that argument. I mean, what would Turris have done if Ottawa had come back and said "okay, we accept your terms"? Respond with "haha, just kidding, trade me?"

 

[Kin]

FWIW Dorion said this morning that Turris never entertained a 6 year deal from Ottawa, he was firm on 7 or 8.

I mean, the fact that he signed a 6 year deal pretty quickly with the Preds calls that into question.

Sure, but I'd be surprised if Dorion just flat out lied like that though, especially when it's something easily fact-checked by reporters who can speak to Turris.

It's not really easily fact checked though. Now that the deal is done and most people seem to be saying that Colorado and Nashville got the best ends out of the deal who exactly is going to dispute Dorian's face saving attempts, if that's what they are, publicly?

If a reporter asks Turris if he entertained a similar extension in Ottawa that he ultimately signed in Nashville, in what universe is the answer anything other than "I'm not really interested in going over the past, right now I'm focused on helping this team win" or whatever sort of hockey cliche? What does it benefit Turris(or his agent) to call Dorian a liar? Or to parse exactly what it means to entertain an offer? Of the 4 people primarily involved in the negotiations last week(Sakic, Poile, Dorian and Turris' agent) all four have an interest in Dorian feeling like he did well in the deal.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Not necessarily.  Just because a guy will sign a particular deal with one team doesn't mean he'll sign it elsewhere.  Maybe he doesn't like it in Ottawa as much as some people would assume.  Maybe he wanted 7/8 years and would have waited for it to happen on the open market this summer instead of taking 6 in Ottawa.

I appreciate the argument you're making here but it does say something about how weird NHL negotiations are that effectively you're saying that Turris may not have really liked it in Ottawa so he was only willing to sign there for as long as he possibly could.

I think I framed my argument incorrectly.  I don't think I should have stated he "doesn't like it in Ottawa" because you are right- if he didn't, he probably wouldn't have been interested in a long-term extension there. 

What I meant is that he wasn't going to take any sort of discount to stay there- he wanted what he was going to shoot for in free agency.  Nashville, on the other hand, presents a better opportunity at winning a cup and thus a player may just be willing to take less to sign there.  That was my point.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Interestingly enough, someone DID ask Turris about his contract negotiations with Ottawa:

An hour or so after Senators general manager Pierre Dorion said Turris and his agent, Kurt Overhardt, had never discussed the idea of a six-year contract extension ? he signed a six-year, $36-million deal with the Nashville Predators once the trade was completed on Sunday night ? Turris cleared the air from his viewpoint.

?To be honest, a six-year deal was never put on the table in negotiations with Ottawa, either,? Turris said in a conference call with Nashville reporters. ?And it was something that it was very apparent that things weren?t going to work out in Ottawa.?

http://ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ottawa-senators/kyle-turris-ready-to-take-on-new-nhl-challenge-in-nashville

 

[Bates]

I believe the tax difference between Ottawa and Nashville is around $800K a year on a $6 million contract.  That just might be why Turris would be willing to take less from Nashville.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I appreciate the argument you're making here but it does say something about how weird NHL negotiations are that effectively you're saying that Turris may not have really liked it in Ottawa so he was only willing to sign there for as long as he possibly could.

That's a big part of the reason I'm having trouble buying into that argument. I mean, what would Turris have done if Ottawa had come back and said "okay, we accept your terms"? Respond with "haha, just kidding, trade me?"

If Turris' camp held firm at 8 years with Ottawa then you're talking about an extra guaranteed $12-14mil depending on what AAV he was looking for. And those extra years would have been in his 35/36-year old seasons. That's a ton of extra security for him at a point where lots of players have their careers start to rock bottom.

 

[Peter D.]

Colorado got a heck of a haul.  But the more I think about it, I believe Ottawa is not going to regret this trade a single bit.  A revived Duchene should flourish there and prove again he is a solid #1 centre.

 

[Frank E]

Not necessarily.  Just because a guy will sign a particular deal with one team doesn't mean he'll sign it elsewhere.  Maybe he doesn't like it in Ottawa as much as some people would assume.  Maybe he wanted 7/8 years and would have waited for it to happen on the open market this summer instead of taking 6 in Ottawa.

I appreciate the argument you're making here but it does say something about how weird NHL negotiations are that effectively you're saying that Turris may not have really liked it in Ottawa so he was only willing to sign there for as long as he possibly could.

Hi guys, I just wanted to interject here...is there something wrong with Nik?

He's appreciating someone else's argument? 

You OK, bro?

 

[Bullfrog]

Colorado got a heck of a haul.  But the more I think about it, I believe Ottawa is not going to regret this trade a single bit.  A revived Duchene should flourish there and prove again he is a solid #1 centre.

Ya. The loss of valuable draft picks sucks, but they got the better player.

 

[cabber24]

I concur outside of Karlsson Sens suck in all assets of the their organization from ownership to their fans.

What a sideways move giving up such high end assets for a very similar player that will likely want a similar contract to what you didn't want to give. Deferring the inevitable while getting hosed to do so... just like Kathleen Wynne and hydro rates.

 

[bustaheims]

If Turris' camp held firm at 8 years with Ottawa then you're talking about an extra guaranteed $12-14mil depending on what AAV he was looking for. And those extra years would have been in his 35/36-year old seasons. That's a ton of extra security for him at a point where lots of players have their careers start to rock bottom.

That's true, but it still doesn't address my question about what he would have done if he wasn't actually interested in staying in Ottawa but they accepted those terms.

 

[Andy007]

I concur outside of Karlsson Sens suck in all assets of the their organization from ownership to their fans.

What a sideways move giving up such high end assets for a very similar player that will likely want a similar contract to what you didn't want to give.

It's going to be interesting to see what Duchene gets/wants. He's at 6 million right now and turns 27 early next year. If he plays at the level Ottawa is expecting, that's going to be a pretty hefty extension. And if he doesn't quite live up to expectations (so, basically, Turris-esque), he's still going to be above that 6 million yearly pricetag (and more expensive than Turris).

I really kind of see this deal as a total lose-lose for Ottawa.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's true, but it still doesn't address my question about what he would have done if he wasn't actually interested in staying in Ottawa but they accepted those terms.

Well, for that I'd refer back to Coco's last post. I think that this was framed incorrectly. I don't think anybody was saying that Turris hated it in Ottawa and flat out didn't want to re-sign. By all indications he and his wife absolutely loved their time there. There's been a lot of stuff coming out about how involved they were in the community and it really seems like they had a huge impact there. Financials being equal (and I think the contract he signed with Nashville is basically right at what his market price is) Ottawa probably just wasn't his #1 choice though for a variety of reasons. An extra 2-year and $12mil would have bumped almost any team to nearly the top of his list though.

 

[Kin]

I think I framed my argument incorrectly.  I don't think I should have stated he "doesn't like it in Ottawa" because you are right- if he didn't, he probably wouldn't have been interested in a long-term extension there. 

What I meant is that he wasn't going to take any sort of discount to stay there- he wanted what he was going to shoot for in free agency.  Nashville, on the other hand, presents a better opportunity at winning a cup and thus a player may just be willing to take less to sign there.  That was my point.

Sure, maybe. But that said, Ottawa did make it to the conference finals last year and only got knocked out in game 7 in overtime. Viewed dispassionately...sure, maybe Nashville's better situated in the long term but it's not by leaps and bounds. Both teams have some compelling pieces and some question marks.

But to bring it back to what I think busta was getting at I don't think you can just look at what went down and say that Dorian must be telling the truth or that it just stands to reason that they couldn't have signed Turris to a similar deal. It seems to me like the truth almost certainly lies in the middle. There were reasons for Ottawa to be reluctant to give Turris a similar deal and they ended up with a player they like more. Ottawa may have been offering a 6 year deal at a lower AAV and that's what Turris didn't entertain.

Either way, I'd be pretty cautious about just taking Dorian's word for what went down with a lot of people saying he's the guy who lost his shirt in the deal.