Kessel traded to Penguins

[cw]

My problem with the trade isn't what we got in return it's what we had to add to the deal in order to get those assets.

If the reports of Scuderi and Kunitz turning down the trade are true, it makes Toronto look a little desperate to make the move. It's not the end of the world but it is annoying to see Kessel on the books until 2022.

If they didn't eat some of his salary or a bad contract, the talent return would have been even less than it was. Kessel's $8 mil/yr cap hit places him 11th in the league right now. I appreciate there are more contracts to come this season and beyond, etc. But it was and is widely perceived that Kessel, as a one dimensional player, is overpaid (not close to being the 11th best NHLer) and there was going to be a reckoning when the Leafs attempted to move him. And there was.

 

[Kin]

Whatever helps you sleep.

Snorting crushed up ambien?

 

[cw]

There's no way around the fact that the salary cap and the length of Kessel's contract heavily influenced Kessel's trade value.  I wonder what the trade return would have been if Kessel had, say, only 4 years left on his contract instead of 7.  I'm pretty comfortable saying Kessel is still a very good to excellent player 4 years from now.  I'm pretty uncomfortable saying that as long as 7 years from now.

I was thinking something similar but in a different way: I was trying to come up with the year I think they'll buy him out. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll make the end of this contract without something like that. I don't think he'll be as bad as Semin at age 31 (like some have flirted with).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Kasperi Kapanen scouting report from Corey Pronman before last year's draft.  Has him 9th (had Nylander 3rd in the ranking):

Link if too small: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI7Uu__WsAAp-Wr.png:large

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If they didn't eat some of his salary or a bad contract, the talent return would have been even less than it was. Kessel's $8 mil/yr cap hit places him 11th in the league right now. I appreciate there are more contracts to come this season and beyond, etc. But it was and is widely perceived that Kessel, as a one dimensional player, is overpaid (not close to being the 11th best NHLer) and there was going to be a reckoning when the Leafs attempted to move him. And there was.

Overpaid is an incredibly difficult term to define. If Kessel was a free agent right now, do you not think that multiple teams would give him $8mil on a long-term deal?

 

[TML fan]

With his character issues? I'm surprised he's still in the league!

 

[Kin]

Overpaid is an incredibly difficult term to define. If Kessel was a free agent right now, do you not think that multiple teams would give him $8mil on a long-term deal?

I can answer that.

 

[Kin]

From Pierre Lebrun, at ESPN.com:

But as conversations with the Leafs ran hot-and-cold the past few weeks, Pittsburgh tried elsewhere. The Pens took a stab at Ryan O?Reilly last week before the Colorado Avalanche shipped him to the Buffalo Sabres, kicked the tires on Jeff Skinner and Patrick Sharp at the draft, and went hard at Brandon Saad on Tuesday before he was dealt to the Columbus Blue Jackets from the Chicago Blackhawks.

The Leafs knew this, and that?s what made Toronto nervous to a degree: the possibility of losing their one and only trade partner for Kessel if Pittsburgh landed another top-six winger instead.

Other than the Calgary Flames dabbling a little, the Leafs had no other real options. It was Pittsburgh or bust. From that perspective, whether the prospects in the deal pan out or not, the Leafs probably did as well as they could given the circumstances.

 

[ZBBM]

From Pierre Lebrun, at ESPN.com:

But as conversations with the Leafs ran hot-and-cold the past few weeks, Pittsburgh tried elsewhere. The Pens took a stab at Ryan O?Reilly last week before the Colorado Avalanche shipped him to the Buffalo Sabres, kicked the tires on Jeff Skinner and Patrick Sharp at the draft, and went hard at Brandon Saad on Tuesday before he was dealt to the Columbus Blue Jackets from the Chicago Blackhawks.

The Leafs knew this, and that?s what made Toronto nervous to a degree: the possibility of losing their one and only trade partner for Kessel if Pittsburgh landed another top-six winger instead.

Other than the Calgary Flames dabbling a little, the Leafs had no other real options. It was Pittsburgh or bust. From that perspective, whether the prospects in the deal pan out or not, the Leafs probably did as well as they could given the circumstances.

I think earlier you used the apt phrase "28 teams shrugged" at the chance to get this top-drawer sniper.  That tells you everything you need to know about how Kessel is viewed, and that Rutherford is blowing a very large cloud of smoke.

 

[Frank E]

I think earlier you used the apt phrase "28 teams shrugged" at the chance to get this top-drawer sniper.  That tells you everything you need to know about how Kessel is viewed, and that Rutherford is blowing a very large cloud of smoke.

Remember though, his contract length and $$ has much more to do with this transaction than Kessel's production.  There's a fair bit of risk attached to a 7 year commitment.

If Kessel had one year left on a deal that paid him $8mil, they'd be lined up at the deadline for this guy.

It was a math problem, not a Kessel problem.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think earlier you used the apt phrase "28 teams shrugged" at the chance to get this top-drawer sniper.  That tells you everything you need to know about how Kessel is viewed, and that Rutherford is blowing a very large cloud of smoke.

Remember though, his contract length and $$ has much more to do with this transaction than Kessel's production.  There's a fair bit of risk attached to a 7 year commitment.

If Kessel had one year left on a deal that paid him $8mil, they'd be lined up at the deadline for this guy.

It was a math problem, not a Kessel problem.

Exactly.  There just aren't a ton of teams who are a) in contending/near contending with b) cap room for Kessel.  If he was UFA and teams could have more control over how they make room?  Teams would be all over it.  But in this case you need to take up a lot of cap space and give up some assets in return.  If there was no cap then you'd likely see half the league make an offer.

 

[cw]

From Pierre Lebrun, at ESPN.com:

But as conversations with the Leafs ran hot-and-cold the past few weeks, Pittsburgh tried elsewhere. The Pens took a stab at Ryan O?Reilly last week before the Colorado Avalanche shipped him to the Buffalo Sabres, kicked the tires on Jeff Skinner and Patrick Sharp at the draft, and went hard at Brandon Saad on Tuesday before he was dealt to the Columbus Blue Jackets from the Chicago Blackhawks.

The Leafs knew this, and that?s what made Toronto nervous to a degree: the possibility of losing their one and only trade partner for Kessel if Pittsburgh landed another top-six winger instead.

Other than the Calgary Flames dabbling a little, the Leafs had no other real options. It was Pittsburgh or bust. From that perspective, whether the prospects in the deal pan out or not, the Leafs probably did as well as they could given the circumstances.

What? Teams weren't falling over themselves trying to get their mitts on Phil for another 7 years at $8 mil/yr?

Kind of answers the prior question above: "do you not think that multiple teams would give him $8mil on a long-term deal?"

Not likely for 7 years x $8 mil/yr.

But those same GMs would be all over other NHLers in that price range ...

 

[herman]

From Pierre Lebrun, at ESPN.com:

But as conversations with the Leafs ran hot-and-cold the past few weeks, Pittsburgh tried elsewhere. The Pens took a stab at Ryan O?Reilly last week before the Colorado Avalanche shipped him to the Buffalo Sabres, kicked the tires on Jeff Skinner and Patrick Sharp at the draft, and went hard at Brandon Saad on Tuesday before he was dealt to the Columbus Blue Jackets from the Chicago Blackhawks.

The Leafs knew this, and that?s what made Toronto nervous to a degree: the possibility of losing their one and only trade partner for Kessel if Pittsburgh landed another top-six winger instead.

Other than the Calgary Flames dabbling a little, the Leafs had no other real options. It was Pittsburgh or bust. From that perspective, whether the prospects in the deal pan out or not, the Leafs probably did as well as they could given the circumstances.

What? Teams weren't falling over themselves trying to get their mitts on Phil for another 7 years at $8 mil/yr?

Kind of answers the prior question above: "do you not think that multiple teams would give him $8mil on a long-term deal?"

Not likely for 7 years x $8 mil/yr.

But those same GMs would be all over other NHLers in that price range ...

Signing Kessel to 7 years $8 mil is very different from trading for Kessel with 7 years of $8 mil on the contract.

 

[moon111]

Kessel can score... and back check all the way to being the 3rd worst +/- in the league.

 

[cw]

I think earlier you used the apt phrase "28 teams shrugged" at the chance to get this top-drawer sniper.  That tells you everything you need to know about how Kessel is viewed, and that Rutherford is blowing a very large cloud of smoke.

Remember though, his contract length and $$ has much more to do with this transaction than Kessel's production.  There's a fair bit of risk attached to a 7 year commitment.

If Kessel had one year left on a deal that paid him $8mil, they'd be lined up at the deadline for this guy.

It was a math problem, not a Kessel problem.

If it's Crosby or Stamkos @ $10 mil for 7 years, I don't think there's a math problem for most teams - or it's a math problem they're happy to solve. Therefore, with Kessel, it is more of a problem with Kessel's worth and $8 mil/yr for Kessel over 7 years scared a lot of teams away.

 

[Kin]

It was a math problem, not a Kessel problem.

It was both.

One thing that I think is undeniable looking at Chicago right now and, more to the point, whatever team is going to be the next Chicago it seems pretty clear. Teams will have to make hard decisions on players they didn't really have to before. They'res only going to be room for one or two or at most three top of the league type players getting market value.

They're going to have to look at guys as "I want this guy on my team, come hell or high water" sort of guys or they're going to have to be pretty flexible about having them around.

And resultingly, a lot of teams, many with cap space and assets looked at Kessel and said "No thanks". That doesn't make Kessel a bad player or a bad teammate any more than Chicago's decision to trade Brandon Saad makes him either of those things.

I didn't post that to bury Kessel, just to give a realistic indication of what the market really was for him. I think the people out there who think the Leafs did badly here or, worse, could have done much, much better if Kessel came back next year and scored 75 points need to realize...the market for him was soft in large part because of deficiencies, whether real or exaggerated, endemic to his game.

I like the trade. I like Phil Kessel. I'm happy for him and I think he'll light it up in Pittsburgh. But this was about as good as they were going to do.

 

[Kin]

If it's Crosby or Stamkos @ $10 mil for 7 years, I don't think there's a math problem for most teams - or it's a math problem they're happy to solve. Therefore, with Kessel, it is more of a problem with Kessel's worth and $8 mil/yr for Kessel over 7 years scared a lot of teams away.

You heard it here first, folks. Kessel at market value isn't as good as Sidney Crosby below market value.

 

[cw]

More from Lebrun
link
For starters, the Penguins didn?t lose what they felt were their Grade A prospects in the package sent back to Toronto.

So even the Pens, according to Lebrun, didn't regard Kapanen as "top flight" ("Grade A" above)

Secondly, and more importantly, was Toronto's agreeing to retain some of Kessel's salary, an idea that the Leafs had fought for a long time. Toronto retained 15 percent of Kessel?s annual salary, and the perennial 35-goal scorer looks a lot better on your roster at $6.75 million per year than $8 million, that?s for sure.

 

[Bullfrog]

Secondly, and more importantly, was Toronto's agreeing to retain some of Kessel's salary, an idea that the Leafs had fought for a long time. Toronto retained 15 percent of Kessel?s annual salary, and the perennial 35-goal scorer looks a lot better on your roster at $6.75 million per year than $8 million, that?s for sure.

So, we've established saving money is desirable?

 

[cw]

If it's Crosby or Stamkos @ $10 mil for 7 years, I don't think there's a math problem for most teams - or it's a math problem they're happy to solve. Therefore, with Kessel, it is more of a problem with Kessel's worth and $8 mil/yr for Kessel over 7 years scared a lot of teams away.

You heard it here first, folks. Kessel at market value isn't as good as Sidney Crosby below market value.

Crosby at $10 mil per year being below his market value? probably. Whatever his market value precisely is, isn't terribly relevant because teams would gladly pay it.

I think we found out in this trade that Kessel's market value isn't $8 mil/yr x 7 years. That debate is over.