Leafs at World Championships

[riff raff]

Not surprised that other countries are well down their depth charts but I think we always assume Canada can ice 2 or 3 competitive teams as compared to other countries.

But don't we believe that because it's true? Isn't the discrepancy between expectations and what was delivered not that Canada can't ice a C team and be competitive but rather that losing a one goal game in the quarter-finals to another very good hockey country somehow doesn't qualify as being "competitive"?

Of course it's true. But that response was to the fact that other countries were down to inexperienced goalies so why are we complaining?

 

[Kin]

Of course it's true. But that response was to the fact that other countries were down to inexperienced goalies so why are we complaining?

Well, except that's where the fundamental problem with the idea of the World Championships as a test of national hockey strength lies. Pekka Rinne isn't an inexperienced goalie. He's a two time Vezina finalist. I don't know where he'd rank on a list of Finnish goalies but he's shown an ability to be among the best goalies in the world. It's just sort of a weird coincidence that he A) is available and B) due to injury just didn't hit the 30+ game mark that CTB used.

Canada's problem isn't depth, it's just that the way injuries and availability shook out they couldn't use any of their top 10 guys. That Scrivens and Reimer were able to make the team competitive despite being, at a push, near the bottom of a top 15 list actually reveals how good the depth of talent in Canada is.

 

[riff raff]

Of course it's true. But that response was to the fact that other countries were down to inexperienced goalies so why are we complaining?

Well, except that's where the fundamental problem with the idea of the World Championships as a test of national hockey strength lies. Pekka Rinne isn't an inexperienced goalie. He's a two time Vezina finalist. I don't know where he'd rank on a list of Finnish goalies but he's shown an ability to be among the best goalies in the world. It's just sort of a weird coincidence that he A) is available and B) due to injury just didn't hit the 30+ game mark that CTB used.

Canada's problem isn't depth, it's just that the way injuries and availability shook out they couldn't use any of their top 10 guys. That Scrivens and Reimer were able to make the team competitive despite being, at a push, near the bottom of a top 15 list actually reveals how good the depth of talent in Canada is.

Just out of interest (and as a way to pass the time) who would you say are the top 10-15 Canadian goalies?

 

[Redleaf]

Of course it's true. But that response was to the fact that other countries were down to inexperienced goalies so why are we complaining?

Well, except that's where the fundamental problem with the idea of the World Championships as a test of national hockey strength lies. Pekka Rinne isn't an inexperienced goalie. He's a two time Vezina finalist. I don't know where he'd rank on a list of Finnish goalies but he's shown an ability to be among the best goalies in the world. It's just sort of a weird coincidence that he A) is available and B) due to injury just didn't hit the 30+ game mark that CTB used.

Canada's problem isn't depth, it's just that the way injuries and availability shook out they couldn't use any of their top 10 guys. That Scrivens and Reimer were able to make the team competitive despite being, at a push, near the bottom of a top 15 list actually reveals how good the depth of talent in Canada is.

Just out of interest (and as a way to pass the time) who would you say are the top 10-15 Canadian goalies?

Here is Sportsnets list from Nov of last year. (It is weaker than I thought)

I thinks its safe to say, Bernier has moved up to at least the number 7 spot since then (I'd put him at #5)...

1) Carey Price, Montreal Canadiens: Price remains the likely candidate to open as the starter for Team Canada. Playing behind an otherwise average team in Montreal, Price has put up stellar numbers with wins in two of his last three starts and a goals-against average of 1.67 and save percentage of .944 over that span.

2) Roberto Luongo, Vancouver Canucks: Now that he has the Canucks? No. 1 job all to himself again, Luongo has been very consistent this year. He?s allowed two goals in seven of his last eight starts.

3) Mike Smith, Phoenix Coyotes: In league circles, Smith is considered to be a lock for the roster?but he?s stumbled as of late. Smith has allowed 15 goals over his last four starts and was pulled after two periods in a 4-2 loss to Anaheim on Saturday.

4) Corey Crawford, Chicago Blackhawks: Crawford does have a Stanley Cup on his resume but remains on the outside looking in. He?s registered wins in three of his last five appearances but put up two clunkers during that stretch.

5) Josh Harding, Minnesota Wild: Harding has been among the top goalies in the NHL this season, but his numbers have begun to fall off over his past two contests. The Wild netminder allowed six goals with a lowly .880 save percentage in those games and is now battling the dreaded lower-body injury. Is this a sign of things to come?

6) Marc-Andre Fleury, Pittsburgh Penguins: Fleury is up to his usual antics this season. He?s performed admirably (as always during the regular season) for Pittsburgh , allowing just three goals in his last four contests and dropping his goals-against average on the season to 1.93. His previous playoff numbers will likely doom his chances.

7) James Reimer, Toronto Maple Leafs: Reimer has been very impressive this season. The addition of Jonathan Bernier has not fazed Reimer at all and he?s actually thrived under the circumstances. Reimer has won four of his last six starts.

8) Ben Scrivens, Los Angeles Kings: Who would?ve thought the Leafs could develop goalies?! The Kings have gotten phenomenal play from Scrivens since Jonathan Quick went down with a groin injury. He registered four straight wins with two shutouts before picking up overtime losses his past two games.

9) Jonathan Bernier, Toronto Maple Leafs: Bernier has shown flashes of star potential but he continues to be haunted by ugly goals. He has just one victory in his last four games and needs to improve his focus and concentration. Reimer has been the more reliable goalie in Toronto as of late.

10) Braden Holtby, Washington Capitals: Holtby has been able to hold the No. 10 spot in the power rankings with improved play over the last week. In his last four contests, Holtby is getting his groove back, allowing nine goals with a stellar .940 save percentage.

 

[riff raff]

Of course it's true. But that response was to the fact that other countries were down to inexperienced goalies so why are we complaining?

Well, except that's where the fundamental problem with the idea of the World Championships as a test of national hockey strength lies. Pekka Rinne isn't an inexperienced goalie. He's a two time Vezina finalist. I don't know where he'd rank on a list of Finnish goalies but he's shown an ability to be among the best goalies in the world. It's just sort of a weird coincidence that he A) is available and B) due to injury just didn't hit the 30+ game mark that CTB used.

Canada's problem isn't depth, it's just that the way injuries and availability shook out they couldn't use any of their top 10 guys. That Scrivens and Reimer were able to make the team competitive despite being, at a push, near the bottom of a top 15 list actually reveals how good the depth of talent in Canada is.

Just out of interest (and as a way to pass the time) who would you say are the top 10-15 Canadian goalies?

Here is Sportsnets list from Nov of last year. (It is weaker than I thought)

I thinks its safe to say, Bernier has moved up to at least the number 7 spot since then...

1) Carey Price, Montreal Canadiens: Price remains the likely candidate to open as the starter for Team Canada. Playing behind an otherwise average team in Montreal, Price has put up stellar numbers with wins in two of his last three starts and a goals-against average of 1.67 and save percentage of .944 over that span.

2) Roberto Luongo, Vancouver Canucks: Now that he has the Canucks? No. 1 job all to himself again, Luongo has been very consistent this year. He?s allowed two goals in seven of his last eight starts.

3) Mike Smith, Phoenix Coyotes: In league circles, Smith is considered to be a lock for the roster?but he?s stumbled as of late. Smith has allowed 15 goals over his last four starts and was pulled after two periods in a 4-2 loss to Anaheim on Saturday.

4) Corey Crawford, Chicago Blackhawks: Crawford does have a Stanley Cup on his resume but remains on the outside looking in. He?s registered wins in three of his last five appearances but put up two clunkers during that stretch.

5) Josh Harding, Minnesota Wild: Harding has been among the top goalies in the NHL this season, but his numbers have begun to fall off over his past two contests. The Wild netminder allowed six goals with a lowly .880 save percentage in those games and is now battling the dreaded lower-body injury. Is this a sign of things to come?

6) Marc-Andre Fleury, Pittsburgh Penguins: Fleury is up to his usual antics this season. He?s performed admirably (as always during the regular season) for Pittsburgh , allowing just three goals in his last four contests and dropping his goals-against average on the season to 1.93. His previous playoff numbers will likely doom his chances.

7) James Reimer, Toronto Maple Leafs: Reimer has been very impressive this season. The addition of Jonathan Bernier has not fazed Reimer at all and he?s actually thrived under the circumstances. Reimer has won four of his last six starts.

8) Ben Scrivens, Los Angeles Kings: Who would?ve thought the Leafs could develop goalies?! The Kings have gotten phenomenal play from Scrivens since Jonathan Quick went down with a groin injury. He registered four straight wins with two shutouts before picking up overtime losses his past two games.

9) Jonathan Bernier, Toronto Maple Leafs: Bernier has shown flashes of star potential but he continues to be haunted by ugly goals. He has just one victory in his last four games and needs to improve his focus and concentration. Reimer has been the more reliable goalie in Toronto as of late.

10) Braden Holtby, Washington Capitals: Holtby has been able to hold the No. 10 spot in the power rankings with improved play over the last week. In his last four contests, Holtby is getting his groove back, allowing nine goals with a stellar .940 save percentage.

I think you have to take out Harding as he seems to be struggling with his health issues. And what to do with Fleury?

Anyway, if that's the top 10, the skill-set falls off dramatically after 4 (or three).

 

[Kin]

I don't know about any specific rankings but Price, Luongo, Bernier, Ward, Crawford, Mason, Holtby, Smith and Fleury probably make up the bulk of the top 10 and then there's probably a group of 8-10 guys who are in the mix for the next 5 or 6 spots but are hard to judge because of how difficult measuring back-up performance is. You could maybe make an argument for Reimer somewhere at the back of that top 10, I suppose, but I'd struggle with saying he's head and shoulders above someone like Josh Harding or Brian Elliott.

 

[riff raff]

I don't know about any specific rankings but Price, Luongo, Bernier, Ward, Crawford, Mason, Holtby, Smith and Fleury probably make up the bulk of the top 10 and then there's probably a group of 8-10 guys who are in the mix for the next 5 or 6 spots but are hard to judge because of how difficult measuring back-up performance is. You could maybe make an argument for Reimer somewhere at the back of that top 10, I suppose, but I'd struggle with saying he's head and shoulders above someone like Josh Harding or Brian Elliott.

You would still put Ward in a top 10?

 

[Kin]

I don't know about any specific rankings but Price, Luongo, Bernier, Ward, Crawford, Mason, Holtby, Smith and Fleury probably make up the bulk of the top 10 and then there's probably a group of 8-10 guys who are in the mix for the next 5 or 6 spots but are hard to judge because of how difficult measuring back-up performance is. You could maybe make an argument for Reimer somewhere at the back of that top 10, I suppose, but I'd struggle with saying he's head and shoulders above someone like Josh Harding or Brian Elliott.

You would still put Ward in a top 10?

When healthy? Yeah, probably.

 

[riff raff]

I was going to say that that list looks kind of weak once you get past the first couple, but, on reflection, I would think that if you put a similar list together for any other country (even Finland - the goalie factory) there would be a similar drop off.

Maybe the problem is the top end of the list don't go to the WC like other countries' top goalies do.

 

[slapshot]

I just find it interesting that Scrivens outplayed Reimer and took the starting job. It was definitely up for grabs, but Reimer certainly had the early edge based on experience.

Reimer is a nice guy and has played some quality games for the Leafs but that doesn't change the fact that...

1. His coach in the World Championships felt Scrivens had played better
2. His coach on the Leafs felt Bernier played better

In both cases, two separate coaches, two different goalies competing against, Reimer had ample opportunity to prove he was better. In both cases, he didn't.

This whole "Ok" thing was blown so out of porportion in the media, it hardly warrants commenting on. If a coach can give a honest and mild comment on a player's performance when asked and everyone goes all snaky, it's pretty sad.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The stats in those two instances showed that the other goalies performed better.  It's got nothing to do with what the coach thinks of the players.  They had better SV%'s and the coach went with them.