Leafs at World Championships

[Redleaf]

I don't think he bashes the players.

And I'm not sure where this "Carlyle isn't good with young players" thing comes from...haven't Kadri, Gardiner, and Rielly steadily improved nicely over the past couple of seasons (well 1 season for Rielly)?  Who has regressed?

Probably a topic for a different thread anyways.

While you make a valid point re: they get in the lineup, the thing people have the hardest time with is that he preaches accountability, but it is ALWAYS the young players who are taken to task, benched etc and never the veterans.

Now one could argue that this is a teaching moment, but when it happens all the time, it must lead to resentment on the part of those young players and a sense of victimization, especially why they contribute far more with their play, including gaffes than the other veterans, who contribute next to nothing, but make less small mistakes.

It's early and I've not had my coffee, I hope this makes at least some sense.

Perhaps he's tough on rookies. But I believe that's a good thing. The guys coming up through the system need to know that when they're in the big leagues they need to learn how to adapt. If they think playing the same way they did in the minors, without working on improving any areas of their games will work, than they will need to think again. I think mental toughness is needed if you really want these guys to be successful two-way NHL players and that's all RC is trying to do here.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

 

[bustaheims]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

There's also the issue with how he used younger guys not named Kadri, Rielly and Gardiner - but, a lot of that also stems from the issues with how he constructs and uses his 4th line.

 

[Redleaf]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

Of course I'm just guessing here, but he probably figures the older guys have already gone through their first few seasons, and should know what is expected from them at the NHL level by now.

It should only breed resentment if he doesn't move on to the other young guys coming up next year and beyond, and bother less with the players that are still learning the NHL game now.

 

[Deebo]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

There's also the issue with how he used younger guys not named Kadri, Rielly and Gardiner - but, a lot of that also stems from the issues with how he constructs and uses his 4th line.

There weren't many younger guys on his roster besides those three. Holland got decent minutes when he was in the line up, more ESTOI/g than McClement.

Leivo got ~10 min a game and D'amigo ~8, but there were only on the roster for 7 and 22 games respectively.

Some had an issue with his use of Ashton, but that's only one guy.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

There's also the issue with how he used younger guys not named Kadri, Rielly and Gardiner - but, a lot of that also stems from the issues with how he constructs and uses his 4th line.

There weren't many younger guys on his roster besides those three. Holland got decent minutes when he was in the line up, more ESTOI/g than McClement.

More being 0:05, so basically the same ES/TOI per game.  I wonder how much of Holland's average there is skewed slightly by his few games getting 17/18/19 minutes since he only played 43 games to McClement's 81.  30% of Holland's games saw him get under 10:00 per night.

I don't feel like adding it up though, doesn't really matter.

 

[Deebo]

I agree Red, but it's how he does it that is bothersome.

He preaches team wide accountability, but it's always the kids that are harassed by him.

It's contradictory and will inevitably lead to resentment.

There's also the issue with how he used younger guys not named Kadri, Rielly and Gardiner - but, a lot of that also stems from the issues with how he constructs and uses his 4th line.

There weren't many younger guys on his roster besides those three. Holland got decent minutes when he was in the line up, more ESTOI/g than McClement.

More being 0:05, so basically the same ES/TOI per game.  I wonder how much of Holland's average there is skewed slightly by his few games getting 17/18/19 minutes since he only played 43 games to McClement's 81.  30% of Holland's games saw him get under 10:00 per night.

I don't feel like adding it up though, doesn't really matter.

3 games over 17 minutes, 4 games under 5 minutes. Average is about the same if you take out those outliers. So he averaged around 11:30 a night, I think that's pretty fair for him.

But the main point was there wasn't many young guys outside Kadri, Reilly and Gardiner (who all received significant minutes) on the roster and outside of maybe Ashton, I don't think there was an issue with how Carlyle utilized his young players.

 

[Kin]

I think at some point the proof has to be in the pudding, doesn't it? I mean, there were certainly no shortage of good players developed during his Duck years and nobody has flamed out on the Leafs yet.

 

[pmrules]

  I can't take losing another young player who then turns out to be a great player in the league.

Can we examine this a bit further.  Maybe this is another thread, but have there been that many young Leaf players, say in the last 10 years, that we have "lost" that have truly gone on to be "great player (s)"?

I can think of 2 (maybe 3) that I truly miss (Rask/Steen) that would help the current team.  Of course Seguin/Hamilton and others of those ilk do not qualify, since they were never ours to lose. 

Anyone else? 

Next player I can think of is possibly Stralman - and even then just barely.  I don't really miss Colaiacovo, Stajan, Colborne, Versteeg, Schenn (esp. given JVR as the return) or Stralberg.  Antro/Poni/Wellwood are not playing in the NHL anymore, and Antro/Poni weren't even young when they left here.  I'm sure I'm missing somebody else. 

Point being, I don't believe losing young players has severely hurt this team as currently constructed (save Rask/Steen).  I'm sure most teams "better" than the Leafs have at least 2-3 players that they would like to have back, so its not a reason for our current state.  (Zee - I'm not stating that you are stating this by the way - just thinking out loud).

 

[Kin]

I can think of 2 (maybe 3) that I truly miss (Rask/Steen) that would help the current team.  Of course Seguin/Hamilton and others of those ilk do not qualify, since they were never ours to lose. 

I think if Seguin and Hamilton really didn't qualify in that sense then you'd never have heard people lament over Roberto Luongo or Scott Niedermayer either.

 

[93forever]

I wouldn't say Carlyle "bashes" those players.  If he does, he doesn't do it to the media.

It was on the western road trip near the end of the season when Reimer came in for an injured Bernier and commented that he thought he played good (something to that effect).  Carlyle replied something to the point that "that was his opinion".  If I was Carlyle I would have replied in a positive manner such as "yeah he played great, gave us a chance to win and that is what we expect from our goalies".  Then behind closed doors I would have discussed with Reimer his play and performance, but again with some respect and courtesy. 

BTW that was when the collapse started and FWIW all I heard from Reimer in interviews are nothing but pleasantries and politeness.

 

[Kin]

I wouldn't say Carlyle "bashes" those players.  If he does, he doesn't do it to the media.

It was on the western road trip near the end of the season when Reimer came in for an injured Bernier and commented that he thought he played good (something to that effect).  Carlyle replied something to the point that "that was his opinion".  If I was Carlyle I would have replied in a positive manner such as "yeah he played great, gave us a chance to win and that is what we expect from our goalies".  Then behind closed doors I would have discussed with Reimer his play and performance, but again with some respect and courtesy. 

BTW that was when the collapse started and FWIW all I heard from Reimer in interviews are nothing but pleasantries and politeness.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=446693

If that in any way constitutes "bashing" Reimer or would in any way be taken by any of the Leafs as harsh or unwarranted criticism then that would say something pretty sad about them. Certainly way more than it would Carlyle.

 

[Tigger]

I wouldn't say Carlyle "bashes" those players.  If he does, he doesn't do it to the media.

It was on the western road trip near the end of the season when Reimer came in for an injured Bernier and commented that he thought he played good (something to that effect).  Carlyle replied something to the point that "that was his opinion".  If I was Carlyle I would have replied in a positive manner such as "yeah he played great, gave us a chance to win and that is what we expect from our goalies".  Then behind closed doors I would have discussed with Reimer his play and performance, but again with some respect and courtesy. 

BTW that was when the collapse started and FWIW all I heard from Reimer in interviews are nothing but pleasantries and politeness.

IIRC, Carlyle originally said he played 'ok' and Reimer was responding to that, hardly bashing.

Randy utilized his younger players just fine overall and to me was fairly gentle with his comments through the media.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I never really got the feeling that Randy didn't like the kids/didn't want to play them. I just think the way he structured/utilized his 4th line made it seem like it. Guys like Ashton/D'Amigo/Leivo/Holland and even going back to Colborne didn't have roster spots or get more minutes than they maybe should have because they were young, they were neglected because their playing style didn't really reflect what Randy wanted in his bottom-6.

 

[freer]

I wouldn't say Carlyle "bashes" those players.  If he does, he doesn't do it to the media.

It was on the western road trip near the end of the season when Reimer came in for an injured Bernier and commented that he thought he played good (something to that effect).  Carlyle replied something to the point that "that was his opinion".  If I was Carlyle I would have replied in a positive manner such as "yeah he played great, gave us a chance to win and that is what we expect from our goalies".  Then behind closed doors I would have discussed with Reimer his play and performance, but again with some respect and courtesy. 

BTW that was when the collapse started and FWIW all I heard from Reimer in interviews are nothing but pleasantries and politeness.

IIRC, Carlyle originally said he played 'ok' and Reimer was responding to that, hardly bashing.

Randy utilized his younger players just fine overall and to me was fairly gentle with his comments through the media.

Either way, Something was said or done after that game which killed the season. For the record, that was Reimers best game of the season. If it werent for him we would of lost it.

 

[Bullfrog]

That was definitely not his best game of the season. I do think he played well, but he definitely had better games.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

For the record, that was Reimers best game of the season. If it werent for him we would of lost it.

There's no way that was Reimer's best game of the season, and they actually did lose the game.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

For the record, that was Reimers best game of the season. If it werent for him we would of lost it.

There's no way that was Reimer's best game of the season, and they actually did lose the game.

Well other than those two points I agree with him.

 

[freer]

For the record, that was Reimers best game of the season. If it werent for him we would of lost it.

There's no way that was Reimer's best game of the season, and they actually did lose the game.

They beat LA 3-2 after Bernier left the game.

 

[Frank E]

For the record, that was Reimers best game of the season. If it werent for him we would of lost it.

There's no way that was Reimer's best game of the season, and they actually did lose the game.

They beat LA 3-2 after Bernier left the game.

They were playing Detroit in Detroit, and they lost.  If you click the tsn link in Nik's post, you'll see.