Leafs @ Red Wings - Dec. 10th, 8:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[Redleaf]

So then why do fans expect them to play better than they do against the top teams like Detroit??

Because what happened last night is emblematic of a poor ability to drive the play that has shown itself against games against all sorts of teams.

Also, fans might expect them to play better against top teams like Detroit because this year the Leafs have played better against top teams...like Detroit.

I'm confused. Are you saying they are better this year or worse?

 

[Kin]

I'm confused. Are you saying they are better this year or worse?

I'm not saying anything about them "this year" as opposed to any other year. I'm saying that this year's team has played better against Detroit(and other good teams) than they did last night.

 

[bustaheims]

Except, I guess, the 'W'. 

No, not even that. The fact that they won only makes it slightly less vile. Still nowhere close to palatable. An exceptionally poorly played win is still an exceptionally poorly played game.

 

[Redleaf]

Except, I guess, the 'W'. 

No, not even that. The fact that they won only makes it slightly less vile. Still nowhere close to palatable. An exceptionally poorly played win is still an exceptionally poorly played game.

I get that we all have different levels of expectations for this team. I don't base mine on corsi or stats so much as I do wins and loses, and overall improvement from previous seasons. I'd be disappointed if they don't make the playoffs this year, or if they don't show any sort of improvement over last year. (Statistics wise or wins/loses)

If the stats/corsi numbers are worse at seasons end than they were after last season, then I'll be disappointed, and I would expect some major changes to happen. If they show improvement and the team makes the playoffs, then I'm a happy fan. To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

 

[Kin]

To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

What's all about that? Being a fan? Because remember the issue here is how the team played last night. It doesn't matter if you expect a cup or McDavid or whether you base your expectations on quantifiable data or the position of the moon in relation to the planets, you can still evaluate a team and how they played on a night by night basis. You're not saying "hold your applause, let's see how this all plays out at the end" after a night where they play well.

 

[Redleaf]

To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

What's all about that? Being a fan? Because remember the issue here is how the team played last night. It doesn't matter if you expect a cup or McDavid or whether you base your expectations on quantifiable data or the position of the moon in relation to the planets, you can still evaluate a team and how they played on a night by night basis. You're not saying "hold your applause, let's see how this all plays out at the end" after a night where they play well.

Yeah. You sort of got my point, in a backwards-opposite sort of way. Picking apart this team on a game-by-game basis without considering the entirety of a season, seems almost counter productive. Kind of like saying it's been a bad winter in early December after the first snow storm.

 

[Andy007]

To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

What's all about that? Being a fan? Because remember the issue here is how the team played last night. It doesn't matter if you expect a cup or McDavid or whether you base your expectations on quantifiable data or the position of the moon in relation to the planets, you can still evaluate a team and how they played on a night by night basis. You're not saying "hold your applause, let's see how this all plays out at the end" after a night where they play well.

Yeah. You sort of got my point, in a backwards-opposite sort of way. Picking apart this team on a game-by-game basis without considering the entirety of a season, seems almost counter productive. Kind of like saying it's been a bad winter in early December after the first snow storm.

I think Carlton hit the nail on the head. You mentioned how the Leafs didn't play badly last night, which is, well, quite ridiculous, and you got called out accordingly. It has nothing to do with looking at a bigger picture or whatever nonsense you're spouting out now.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

What's all about that? Being a fan? Because remember the issue here is how the team played last night. It doesn't matter if you expect a cup or McDavid or whether you base your expectations on quantifiable data or the position of the moon in relation to the planets, you can still evaluate a team and how they played on a night by night basis. You're not saying "hold your applause, let's see how this all plays out at the end" after a night where they play well.

Yeah. You sort of got my point, in a backwards-opposite sort of way. Picking apart this team on a game-by-game basis without considering the entirety of a season, seems almost counter productive. Kind of like saying it's been a bad winter in early December after the first snow storm.

But Toronto could get 45 cm of snow and to make your analogy work you'd be saying "it didn't snow that much, we're alive aren't we?"

But to really make the analogy work it would have had to snow in varying amounts from October to now with people saying "if this keeps up it's going to be a bad year snow-wise, this storm might have been the worst."

 

[Kin]

Yeah. You sort of got my point, in a backwards-opposite sort of way. Picking apart this team on a game-by-game basis without considering the entirety of a season, seems almost counter productive. Kind of like saying it's been a bad winter in early December after the first snow storm.

As opposed to the awesome productivity that we gain from saying any other thing on the message board? Again, this is not about evaluation in the aggregate. This is about being able to use our eyes and brains and determining whether or not a team played well in a specific game. There's nothing productive or counter-productive about that and it doesn't preclude a different evaluation later on.

Honestly, you're going to throw your back out reaching that hard.

 

[Redleaf]

To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

What's all about that? Being a fan? Because remember the issue here is how the team played last night. It doesn't matter if you expect a cup or McDavid or whether you base your expectations on quantifiable data or the position of the moon in relation to the planets, you can still evaluate a team and how they played on a night by night basis. You're not saying "hold your applause, let's see how this all plays out at the end" after a night where they play well.

Yeah. You sort of got my point, in a backwards-opposite sort of way. Picking apart this team on a game-by-game basis without considering the entirety of a season, seems almost counter productive. Kind of like saying it's been a bad winter in early December after the first snow storm.

I think Carlton hit the nail on the head. You mentioned how the Leafs didn't play badly last night, which is, well, quite ridiculous, and you got called out accordingly. It has nothing to do with looking at a bigger picture or whatever nonsense you're spouting out now.

I said I didn't think they played 'all that bad' considering it was a back to back and against one of the best teams in the league. I 'didn't' say they played well, and deserved the win. The conversation then went to how judging them on one game isn't the best way to determine how well they are playing in general, and that was what really matters. Why all the animosity?

 

[bustaheims]

I said I didn't think they played 'all that bad' considering it was a back to back and against one of the best teams in the league. I 'didn't' say they played well, and deserved the win. The conversation then went to how judging them on one game isn't the best way to determine how well they are playing in general, and that was what really matters. Why all the animosity?

No, you kept trying to steer the conversation that way, and no one was biting.

 

[Redleaf]

I said I didn't think they played 'all that bad' considering it was a back to back and against one of the best teams in the league. I 'didn't' say they played well, and deserved the win. The conversation then went to how judging them on one game isn't the best way to determine how well they are playing in general, and that was what really matters. Why all the animosity?

No, you kept trying to steer the conversation that way, and no one was biting.

No one was biting? Biting what?

Simply put, I was trying to clarify what it was that I meant, as my comment was being taken to mean 'everything was awesome', when in fact it was more...'it aint all bad'.

So, Sue me for sharing my viewpoint on how I don't think you can judge a team with small sample size, or by last nights game, as that was completely uncalled for and I tried my best to corrupt the conversation with these thoughts. 

You're going to be a real fun guy to converse with when the Leafs go into their next slump.

 

[Kin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VjPNKc0VsU

 

[Redleaf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VjPNKcd0VsU

:'(....im hurt.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Except, I guess, the 'W'. 

No, not even that. The fact that they won only makes it slightly less vile. Still nowhere close to palatable. An exceptionally poorly played win is still an exceptionally poorly played game.

I get that we all have different levels of expectations for this team. I don't base mine on corsi or stats so much as I do wins and loses, and overall improvement from previous seasons. I'd be disappointed if they don't make the playoffs this year, or if they don't show any sort of improvement over last year. (Statistics wise or wins/loses)

If the stats/corsi numbers are worse at seasons end than they were after last season, then I'll be disappointed, and I would expect some major changes to happen. If they show improvement and the team makes the playoffs, then I'm a happy fan. To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

You could have made the same argument you're making the past two seasons before they fell off a cliff.

The reason they fell off a cliff both times is because all of these underlying metrics pointed to the fact that it had to happen.

Now this team is getting some wins, but he underlying metrics are still pretty horrific, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to project what lays in wait for the team should they not fundamentally improve.

 

[Kin]

You could have made the same argument you're making the past two seasons before they fell off a cliff.

The reason they fell off a cliff both times is because all of these underlying metrics pointed to the fact that it had to happen.

Now this team is getting some wins, but he underlying metrics are still pretty horrific, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to project what lays in wait for the team should they not fundamentally improve.

Well, you know, it's like George Santayana said "Those who forget history are guaranteed to be happy and get a free slice of cake."

 

[Redleaf]

Except, I guess, the 'W'. 

No, not even that. The fact that they won only makes it slightly less vile. Still nowhere close to palatable. An exceptionally poorly played win is still an exceptionally poorly played game.

I get that we all have different levels of expectations for this team. I don't base mine on corsi or stats so much as I do wins and loses, and overall improvement from previous seasons. I'd be disappointed if they don't make the playoffs this year, or if they don't show any sort of improvement over last year. (Statistics wise or wins/loses)

If the stats/corsi numbers are worse at seasons end than they were after last season, then I'll be disappointed, and I would expect some major changes to happen. If they show improvement and the team makes the playoffs, then I'm a happy fan. To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

You could have made the same argument you're making the past two seasons before they fell off a cliff.

The reason they fell off a cliff both times is because all of these underlying metrics pointed to the fact that it had to happen.

Now this team is getting some wins, but he underlying metrics are still pretty horrific, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to project what lays in wait for the team should they not fundamentally improve.

I'll be honest. I haven't gone through all the stats and compared them to last season. Maybe someone else could touch on how they compare, at least up to this point? Are they trending downwards. If so, for how many games. etc. etc.

I was under the impression that they had gotten better, but there could be another playoff killing slump coming around the corner.

I think they tried to address that issue in the off season with the players they've added, at least in my eyes, it has worked to a certain degree up to this point.

My gut feeling is that there won't be anything like the what we've seen the last few seasons, and that this team will be in the playoffs next spring, but, yeah....you never know.

 

[Redleaf]

You could have made the same argument you're making the past two seasons before they fell off a cliff.

The reason they fell off a cliff both times is because all of these underlying metrics pointed to the fact that it had to happen.

Now this team is getting some wins, but he underlying metrics are still pretty horrific, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to project what lays in wait for the team should they not fundamentally improve.

Well, you know, it's like George Santayana said "Those who forget history are guaranteed to be happy and get a free slice of cake."

Do you really believe that is lost on them? Wasn't that the reason for the coaching changes, a major player turnover, and an analytics dept? I guess firing Carlyle is the only thing that will truly put an end to all these statistical issues?

 

[Kin]

Do you really believe that is lost on them? Wasn't that the reason for the coaching changes, a major player turnover, and an analytics dept? I guess firing Carlyle is the only thing that will truly put an end to all these statistical issues?

That was not a reference to the club.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Except, I guess, the 'W'. 

No, not even that. The fact that they won only makes it slightly less vile. Still nowhere close to palatable. An exceptionally poorly played win is still an exceptionally poorly played game.

I get that we all have different levels of expectations for this team. I don't base mine on corsi or stats so much as I do wins and loses, and overall improvement from previous seasons. I'd be disappointed if they don't make the playoffs this year, or if they don't show any sort of improvement over last year. (Statistics wise or wins/loses)

If the stats/corsi numbers are worse at seasons end than they were after last season, then I'll be disappointed, and I would expect some major changes to happen. If they show improvement and the team makes the playoffs, then I'm a happy fan. To me it's all about steady overall improvement , providing it's based on a full season and not just a handful of games.

You could have made the same argument you're making the past two seasons before they fell off a cliff.

The reason they fell off a cliff both times is because all of these underlying metrics pointed to the fact that it had to happen.

Now this team is getting some wins, but he underlying metrics are still pretty horrific, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to project what lays in wait for the team should they not fundamentally improve.

I'll be honest. I haven't gone through all the stats and compared them to last season. Maybe someone else could touch on how they compare, at least up to this point? Are they trending downwards. If so, for how many games. etc. etc.

I was under the impression that they had gotten better, but there could be another playoff killing slump coming around the corner.

I think they tried to address that issue in the off season with the players they've added, at least in my eyes, it has worked to a certain degree up to this point.

My gut feeling is that there won't be anything like the what we've seen the last few seasons, and that this team will be in the playoffs next spring, but, yeah....you never know.

m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/is-the-maple-leafs-hot-start-for-real-this-time/article22021070/?service=mobile

This is a decent look at it, with a somewhat positive outlook given the small improvements they've made in some areas this year.

For this team to really be considered for real, games like last night and many others this year where they've been completely dominated in almost all facets of the game need to stop. Good teams have this happen maybe once or twice per season, not per month, because even when they're having a bad night, they are so well schooled in how to play the game that they can cover mistakes, playing run and gun, dump the puck giving away possession almost all of the time, we'll score one more than you guys, does not breed success in the modern NHL.

But anyway as I said, I think we've seen this movie before.