Official Armchair GM Thread 2014-2015 Leafs

[KW Sluggo]

this team needs to trade at least 2 of bozak, kessel, phaneuf, lupul.

Trading Bozak and Lupul is going to be difficult. They're two guys who have essentially proven themselves to be bad bets because of their contracts.

The reason you want them gone so badly is the reason it'll be tough to do it.

I'll give them the rest of the summer to do something but I am going to be super dissapointed if those 4 players are still on this team for game 1.

More than trading just any two of the four, they must trade Kessel and Bozak.

That line was a combined worst plus-minus in the league and Kessel, insufferably self-centred at the best of times will be that times ten (useless from the second week of the season instead of from January on) if he is secure in knowing management cannot touch him.

This cancerous attitude must be excised before it metastasizes the next generation of players.

You simply cannot call it a rebuild, even a facelift, without the trade of these two.

Super disappointed is the least of what I would be feeling if anything less happens.

In fact I am already super disappointed they did not trade either of them at the draft. This is the deepest draft in a decade and we did nothing to leverage that. Oh sure we traded down twice (the second one was unnecessary and cost us a chance at some better players) but we needed another first round pick and we traded away our second one. Wrong direction IMHO.

Any draft pick we get for either one now will be a year later, delaying things for no good reason, and in a less talented draft class.

 

[Kin]

so why shouldn't I expect that some of the core not be moved by the beginning of next season.  After the way last season ended I shouldn't be dissapointed if the same guys are coming back next year?

Well, surely you can see the contradiction in thinking these four players are overpriced, underachieving drags on a bad team that the Leafs need to get rid of and also thinking the Leafs should be able to move them easily.

 

[Frank E]

so why shouldn't I expect that some of the core not be moved by the beginning of next season.  After the way last season ended I shouldn't be dissapointed if the same guys are coming back next year?

Well, surely you can see the contradiction in thinking these four players are overpriced, underachieving drags on a bad team that the Leafs need to get rid of and also thinking the Leafs should be able to move them easily.

Nobody said it was going to be easy to move the core guys.  We've discussed how difficult it's going to be and how limited the market is for these guys. 

We've been told by management that we're rebuilding, and step one is stripping down the roster and gathering draft picks/young talent.

I think the moves at the draft in gathering more picks were nice moves, and moves that are congruent with a club in step 1.  Great! 

Now the other pretty important part of step one is disposing of the old core/older assets.  It's not going to be easy, and the market isn't looking too strong for at least a couple of them.

Me being disappointed in the core not being moved out this summer isn't necessarily a comment on Shanahan or Hunter or Dubas, or whoever is calling these shots; I'd just be disappointed that we're tacking more time onto the rebuild, which at this point is looking like 4 years until they're competitive. 

 

[Kin]

Me being disappointed in the core not being moved out this summer isn't necessarily a comment on Shanahan or Hunter or Dubas, or whoever is calling these shots; I'd just be disappointed that we're tacking more time onto the rebuild, which at this point is looking like 4 years until they're competitive.

Well, I guess the way I look at it is that the nature of these contracts being what they are time isn't being "tacked" onto the rebuild. That's just what the rebuild is and, quite frankly, anyone who thought that this would take less than four years regardless of what these guys get dealt for is probably being overly optimistic.

And contrary to what you're saying I think anyone upset that these guys didn't get dealt at the draft and people have said that in this thread is de facto saying these guys should be moved easily. It's a few weeks into the summer. Some of these guys are going to be hard sells if at all possible.

Like Lupul. You're right that adding assets for some of these guys is crucial but if you want to add any real assets for Lupul? You want him to come back and have a good year. Right now, I don't think he's worth a thing.

 

[rdowdall]

Me being disappointed in the core not being moved out this summer isn't necessarily a comment on Shanahan or Hunter or Dubas, or whoever is calling these shots; I'd just be disappointed that we're tacking more time onto the rebuild, which at this point is looking like 4 years until they're competitive.

Well, I guess the way I look at it is that the nature of these contracts being what they are time isn't being "tacked" onto the rebuild. That's just what the rebuild is and, quite frankly, anyone who thought that this would take less than four years regardless of what these guys get dealt for is probably being overly optimistic.

And contrary to what you're saying I think anyone upset that these guys didn't get dealt at the draft and people have said that in this thread is de facto saying these guys should be moved easily. It's a few weeks into the summer. Some of these guys are going to be hard sells if at all possible.

Like Lupul. You're right that adding assets for some of these guys is crucial but if you want to add any real assets for Lupul? You want him to come back and have a good year. Right now, I don't think he's worth a thing.

Has there been inflation on assets as well?  I mean look what Gretzky got moved for from LA to St. Louis.  When the first rebuild was going to take place and guys off the Leafs were going to be moved Sundin was going for Higgins and a 1st.  It may be hindsight creeping in but that seems like a low return on Sundin.

 

[Frank E]

Me being disappointed in the core not being moved out this summer isn't necessarily a comment on Shanahan or Hunter or Dubas, or whoever is calling these shots; I'd just be disappointed that we're tacking more time onto the rebuild, which at this point is looking like 4 years until they're competitive.

Well, I guess the way I look at it is that the nature of these contracts being what they are time isn't being "tacked" onto the rebuild. That's just what the rebuild is and, quite frankly, anyone who thought that this would take less than four years regardless of what these guys get dealt for is probably being overly optimistic.

And contrary to what you're saying I think anyone upset that these guys didn't get dealt at the draft and people have said that in this thread is de facto saying these guys should be moved easily. It's a few weeks into the summer. Some of these guys are going to be hard sells if at all possible.

Like Lupul. You're right that adding assets for some of these guys is crucial but if you want to add any real assets for Lupul? You want him to come back and have a good year. Right now, I don't think he's worth a thing.

I thought 4 years until they're a competitive team (a playoff team), and about 5 or 6 until they're in Cup contention...or at least in the conversation.  That's what I was hoping anyways.

As far as Lupul's trade value is concerned, my hope was an overpaid guy on a shorter deal.  I don't think he's worth anything either. 

 

[Redleaf]

Me being disappointed in the core not being moved out this summer isn't necessarily a comment on Shanahan or Hunter or Dubas, or whoever is calling these shots; I'd just be disappointed that we're tacking more time onto the rebuild, which at this point is looking like 4 years until they're competitive.

Well, I guess the way I look at it is that the nature of these contracts being what they are time isn't being "tacked" onto the rebuild. That's just what the rebuild is and, quite frankly, anyone who thought that this would take less than four years regardless of what these guys get dealt for is probably being overly optimistic.

And contrary to what you're saying I think anyone upset that these guys didn't get dealt at the draft and people have said that in this thread is de facto saying these guys should be moved easily. It's a few weeks into the summer. Some of these guys are going to be hard sells if at all possible.

Like Lupul. You're right that adding assets for some of these guys is crucial but if you want to add any real assets for Lupul? You want him to come back and have a good year. Right now, I don't think he's worth a thing.

Agreed, and as we had discussed earlier, part of a proper rebuild can also include holding onto an asset a little longer than planned in order to get the best possible value. I said it than, and i'll say it now, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they decide to hold onto Kessel for another season to see if they can do that very thing.

 

[Kin]

Has there been inflation on assets as well?  I mean look what Gretzky got moved for from LA to St. Louis.  When the first rebuild was going to take place and guys off the Leafs were going to be moved Sundin was going for Higgins and a 1st.  It may be hindsight creeping in but that seems like a low return on Sundin.

I don't know that I'd describe it as "inflation" but, you know, different assets are going to be worth different things under different CBAs.

And I probably wouldn't read too much into the various rumours going around of what Sundin might have been traded for.

 

[rdowdall]

Has there been inflation on assets as well?  I mean look what Gretzky got moved for from LA to St. Louis.  When the first rebuild was going to take place and guys off the Leafs were going to be moved Sundin was going for Higgins and a 1st.  It may be hindsight creeping in but that seems like a low return on Sundin.

I don't know that I'd describe it as "inflation" but, you know, different assets are going to be worth different things under different CBAs.

And I probably wouldn't read too much into the various rumours going around of what Sundin might have been traded for.

I realize that their are different situations to each deal.  But if we look at the rumoured deal between Pittsburgh and Toronto for Kessel, while it isn't a home run, I do think that it's fairly good value.  You get a young d prospect that should be able to play in your top 4.  You get a 1st rounder that would probably be in the 20 -30 range, but if you look at that D, it may drop if Fleury falters.  You get two assets that can possibly be moved later for more picks. 

I just don't know what more the Leafs could really be expecting.  It's a 1st rounder and a prospect fairly well along in their development, and two players that could possible be moved later for Kessel. 

 

[LuncheonMeat]

this team needs to trade at least 2 of bozak, kessel, phaneuf, lupul.

Trading Bozak and Lupul is going to be difficult. They're two guys who have essentially proven themselves to be bad bets because of their contracts.

The reason you want them gone so badly is the reason it'll be tough to do it.

I'll give them the rest of the summer to do something but I am going to be super dissapointed if those 4 players are still on this team for game 1.

More than trading just any two of the four, they must trade Kessel and Bozak.

That line was a combined worst plus-minus in the league and Kessel, insufferably self-centred at the best of times will be that times ten (useless from the second week of the season instead of from January on) if he is secure in knowing management cannot touch him.

This cancerous attitude must be excised before it metastasizes the next generation of players.

You simply cannot call it a rebuild, even a facelift, without the trade of these two.

Super disappointed is the least of what I would be feeling if anything less happens.

In fact I am already super disappointed they did not trade either of them at the draft. This is the deepest draft in a decade and we did nothing to leverage that. Oh sure we traded down twice (the second one was unnecessary and cost us a chance at some better players) but we needed another first round pick and we traded away our second one. Wrong direction IMHO.

Any draft pick we get for either one now will be a year later, delaying things for no good reason, and in a less talented draft class.

The fact that the Leafs traded out of a group of players that got so much acclaim, to number 34 where they selected a guy off most peoples' radar, makes we wonder just how deep it was.

I think, assuming both return, we've probably seen the last of Kessel playing with Bozak.  If Kadri is part of the future and Bozak isn't, it makes no sense to have him slotted any higher than 2C.  Maybe the best case scenario is everyone has a great year next year and the Leafs make the playoffs.  Guys put on a better showing, the cap increases more than 5%, and then they can be moved next offseason.  In this scenario, maybe Bozak gets moved at the deadline.

Babcock asked Shanahan, what happens if we're in the playoff hunt next year, do you make a move to get more talent to make a run?  And Shanahan's answer was 'no'.  Even if the Leafs make the playoffs, the plan remains.  And maybe that's what needs to happen to be able to trade some of these guys.

 

[Kin]

I just don't know what more the Leafs could really be expecting.  It's a 1st rounder and a prospect fairly well along in their development, and two players that could possible be moved later for Kessel.

I don't know about "Expecting" but I understand it if the Leafs, and some fans, look at Kessel's scoring numbers over the last few years and were hoping that some team out there would step up with an offer that contained at least one asset that they could sell as a really exciting addition to the club.

But I agree with you that this deal is not terrible value and I assume if it's being seriously considered it means that it might be the best thing out there. I understand that there are a lot of people here who think of all of those questions about Kessel's effort and defense and "leadership" are all just a big pile of bullspit but...the league has stupid people in it. If everyone is looking at Kessel, looking at his contract and shrugging...there won't be great offers out there.

 

[Tigger]

this team needs to trade at least 2 of bozak, kessel, phaneuf, lupul.

Trading Bozak and Lupul is going to be difficult. They're two guys who have essentially proven themselves to be bad bets because of their contracts.

The reason you want them gone so badly is the reason it'll be tough to do it.

I'll give them the rest of the summer to do something but I am going to be super dissapointed if those 4 players are still on this team for game 1.

Yeah, disappointed but not overly. My guess is that two of them won't be there at the start of next season.

thats my hope too.

One down! 

 

[sneakyray]

this team needs to trade at least 2 of bozak, kessel, phaneuf, lupul.

Trading Bozak and Lupul is going to be difficult. They're two guys who have essentially proven themselves to be bad bets because of their contracts.

The reason you want them gone so badly is the reason it'll be tough to do it.

I'll give them the rest of the summer to do something but I am going to be super dissapointed if those 4 players are still on this team for game 1.

Yeah, disappointed but not overly. My guess is that two of them won't be there at the start of next season.

thats my hope too.

One down! 

Yep...and the biggest most complicated one as well