Opening Forward Lines
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mr grieves
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freer said:
Yeah, I understand the causal relationship you're trying to see.
mr grieves
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Potvin29 said:
Followed that up with a Tweeted chart showing Bozak with and without Kessel: https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/540563340209430528
I do wonder how many of Bozak's without-kassel minutes come at the end of PKs or late in games when he's out taking face-offs to defend leads. Terrible production wouldn't be unexpected in those situations, right?
mr grieves said:
It is pretty tough to take a fair look at Bozak's minutes without Kessel. I mean everybody who has watched the team knows that especially over the last 2 or 3 seasons when Bozak is healthy he's basically started every game with Kessel as his right-winger. That few game stretch earlier this season where it was JVR-Bozak-Clarkson was the longest that I remember Bozak and Kessel being apart on actual lines. We like to say things like Kadri would need 20 or so games with Kessel to truly figure out if the two fit, the same should be said about Bozak not playing with Kessel.
I've obviously never been the biggest Bozak fan, but the dude's putting up points and winning face-offs. As things stand right now he's doing a good job in the role he's in. Let's just enjoy the offensive production while it lasts. If/when the offence dries up we can go back to saying how much he sucks.
GhostofPotvin29
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CarltonTheBear said:
Yeah it's very difficult to say because they've been attached at the hip basically since Bozak entered the league. It's pretty crazy actually. I wonder how many duos there are in the league that have spent that much time together where it completely dwarfs their time apart.
Potvin29 said:
There's probably a small handful. Sedins obviously. I know Boston pretty much always plays Krejci-Lucic and Bergeron-Marchand together. Crosby and Kunitz in Pittsburgh. Pacioretty/Desharnais is pretty much Montreal's Kessel/Bozak.
GhostofPotvin29
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CarltonTheBear said:
Sedins! I knew there was an obvious one I was missing.
Kessel Run
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Potvin29 said:
One of them missed over half a season a while back didn't they?
mr grieves
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Good article on a top line that's not good enough, regardless of its members' production.
link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirtle-carlyle-calls-out-leafs-top-line-after-stinker-against-devils/article21967155/
link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirtle-carlyle-calls-out-leafs-top-line-after-stinker-against-devils/article21967155/
mr grieves said:
Some more not-so-flattering numbers from that top-line:
[quote author=Twitter]
CorsiHockeyLeague @CorsiHL ? 9 minutes ago
Some perspective on how brutal TOR's L1 is in own zone: 307 forwards in the league have played 200+ minutes at 5v5 so far...
CorsiHockeyLeague @CorsiHL ? 9 minutes ago
In terms of on-ice shots against per 60, Bozak ranks 299th, Kessel 303rd, JVR 304th
ZBBM
Active member
Mirtle's opening line admits this is all nothing new. Even w/o advstats to back it up, anyone can see that they are awful defensively.
One possible response?and I put this out there very tentatively because I fully realize that doing something like this is next to impossible, even for a progressive thinker like Carlyle?is to break the line up and try a new combination for more than a game or two.
One possible response?and I put this out there very tentatively because I fully realize that doing something like this is next to impossible, even for a progressive thinker like Carlyle?is to break the line up and try a new combination for more than a game or two.
GhostofPotvin29
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[/quote]CarltonTheBear said:
I still maintain it's Kadri-time.
mr grieves
New member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
What was the experiment? Lupul-Kadri-Kessel, JvR-Bozak-Winnik? Something like that. Didn't look bad. Splitting Kadri and one of Santorelli or Winnik (whoever's top 6 that week) up would get some balance as far as defensive aptitude -- or, more precisely, pushing play in the right direction -- goes. Problem, I suppose, is that only Kessel, Lupul, and Kadri can reliably generate offense.
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
I don't think it is a great way to attribute individual defensive acumen, but, when, as a group, they're all finding themselves in the bottom 10 in the league, I'd say that it says a lot about their defensive play as a line. Likewise, when combined with the "eye test," I think shows that Phaneuf's numbers are likely skewed by spending so much time on the ice with that group of forwards (or, in other cases, vice versa - in this case, I definitely think the issue is more on the forwards being really poor on the defensive side of the puck).
mr grieves
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Nik the Trik said:
But how much can we really attribute that to their individual defensive acumen?
[/quote]
Probably not much, but is the argument about the individuals? Or the combination?
Kin
New member
mr grieves said:
My point wasn't so much about the individuals vs. the group as it was the players vs. whatever it is we're attributing to Carlyle or just what seems to be affecting the Leafs as a whole. The Leafs as a whole do pretty badly in those rankings. Kadri is 272nd. There's a cluster of Toronto defensemen in the 150's. Even guys like Winnik rate pretty poorly for how good a defensive player he looks to be.
So I guess my question is can this really be addressed simply by a lineup shuffle?
Kin
New member
bustaheims said:
Yeah, I don't want to dismiss that out of hand but when I look at where the rest of the Leafs are on that list it's really hard not to come back to it being a systemic issue(by which, just to clarify, I don't necessarily mean a coaching system) and that whatever effect the system has on the Leafs in general is going to be more pronounced in their top guys.
Right? So, if the Leafs are sort inclined to giving up a ton of shots then a line like Kessel's who'll get put out there as much as possible in close or tied games will probably feel the effect of it more than others.
bustaheims
Active member
freer said:
At the end of the season, these stats mean a lot. They help illuminate the reasons why teams performed as well or as poorly as they did, and whether or not they're likely to have success in the playoffs. Also, in a league where more than half the teams make the playoffs, simply do so should not be considered a successful season.