Opening Forward Lines

[Frank E]

So at some point this is on Shanahan, right? Carlyle and Nonis are doing what they did before he got here which, rightly or wrongly, is clearly what they think is best for the club. Shanny is the guy who let that train keep on rolling. Either Shanahan agrees with this sort of thing, which is a serious problem, or he doesn't but is reluctant to make a decision in the best interest in the club which is somehow worse.

You're talking about who the 13-14th forwards are going to be as a reason that there's a fundamental problem with the management team that will be judged on a season that hasn't even started yet.

Just a couple of months ago we were quite happy with their restraint on the free agent frenzy, on their draft picks, including Nylander over a more truculent propect, and their getting some RHS defensemen.

It's probably going to be one roster spot for a tough guy, that's it.  I'm not ready to hang anyone because they want a heavyweight on the roster.  I may not agree with it, but I'm not willing to suggest that they don't know what they're doing because of that choice.

 

[Kin]

You're talking about who the 13-14th forwards are going to be as a reason that there's a fundamental problem with the management team that will be judged on a season that hasn't even started yet.

If Carlyle's history indicated that when the team was healthy McLaren and Orr would be the guys in the press box as opposed to having one of them dressed and skating I don't think you'd see the reaction we're seeing.

Just a couple of months ago we were quite happy with their restraint on the free agent frenzy, on their draft picks, including Nylander over a more truculent propect, and their getting some RHS defensemen.

Well, you might have been happy with all of those things but I've been relatively indifferent on two of them(their "restraint" more being the reality of them not having money to spend and I don't care much about the RHS) and I gave Nylander my patented "I don't know anything about prospects" thumbs up so it's not quite the massive swing for me

It's probably going to be one roster spot for a tough guy, that's it.  I'm not ready to hang anyone because they want a heavyweight on the roster.  I may not agree with it, but I'm not willing to suggest that they don't know what they're doing because of that choice.

If you ignore the one part in my post about Shanahan agreeing with this line of thinking being a "serious problem" then really what you're left with is me saying that the decisions that Carlyle and Nonis are making will reflect on Shanahan. I don't think that's a super controversial statement to make given what happened between the end of this past season and now.

And as to the seriousness of the problem, I don't think it's limited to just the impact Orr or Mclaren have on the roster but also the organizational philosophy going forward. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So at some point this is on Shanahan, right? Carlyle and Nonis are doing what they did before he got here which, rightly or wrongly, is clearly what they think is best for the club. Shanny is the guy who let that train keep on rolling. Either Shanahan agrees with this sort of thing, which is a serious problem, or he doesn't but is reluctant to make a decision in the best interest in the club which is somehow worse.

You're talking about who the 13-14th forwards are going to be as a reason that there's a fundamental problem with the management team that will be judged on a season that hasn't even started yet.

I think if that's how it plays out with the 4th line (i.e. Orr/McLaren in the lineup more than not) then it goes to question the decision-making process/ability of management and the coach.

 

[freer]

So at some point this is on Shanahan, right? Carlyle and Nonis are doing what they did before he got here which, rightly or wrongly, is clearly what they think is best for the club. Shanny is the guy who let that train keep on rolling. Either Shanahan agrees with this sort of thing, which is a serious problem, or he doesn't but is reluctant to make a decision in the best interest in the club which is somehow worse.

You're talking about who the 13-14th forwards are going to be as a reason that there's a fundamental problem with the management team that will be judged on a season that hasn't even started yet.

I think if that's how it plays out with the 4th line (i.e. Orr/McLaren in the lineup more than not) then it goes to question the decision-making process/ability of management and the coach.

did I miss something here. The last interview I saw stated Clarkson was not going to miss any time. He will need to wear a cage, or something.

 

[bustaheims]

So at some point this is on Shanahan, right? Carlyle and Nonis are doing what they did before he got here which, rightly or wrongly, is clearly what they think is best for the club. Shanny is the guy who let that train keep on rolling. Either Shanahan agrees with this sort of thing, which is a serious problem, or he doesn't but is reluctant to make a decision in the best interest in the club which is somehow worse.

Yeah, it's definitely a potential problem. At best, Shanahan is giving Nonis and Carlyle just enough rope to hang themselves, but, if that was his intention, why not just let them go as part of the changes he's already made?

 

[Highlander]

I think the Shanaplan was to let Carlyle have the rest of the rope to hang himself and try to build the roster to a competitive enought point where we have a chance of making the playoffs. If there is a long losing streak, anything over 8 games, Randy is gone and Spott and Horacheck will finish the season and try to work a deal to remain behind the bench with Babcock as boss.  Perhaps this is already arranged in a conversation on a dock in Muskoka somtime in August. One thing about the Loafs is they always look after their previous player/coaches with nice million dollar golden parachutes.  Think Ron and now Randy C.

 

[skrackle]

I know the Leafs have to actually play and lose the games before the season is written off, but my expectations are pretty low for this year.

My impression of Nonis has gone from thinking the Leafs were in good hands when he took over from Burke, to thinking at least he didn't do anything too stupid in the off season. I get the feeling from him that he thinks the Leafs are much better than they really are. That seems to be a trend with Leaf GMs.

I'm not sure what Shanahan is thinking, though I lean toward the 'give them enough rope' theory. Maybe he's got his eye on personnel that aren't available yet and wouldn't mind drafting high again.

Otherwise, he's on board with the direction the team is currently taking and well, good luck with that.

 

[Joe S.]

I just want someone to show me any NHL roster where McLaren and Orr fit.

Show me the playoff team that had 2 players of such low talent on their roster.

 

[Bender]

I just want someone to show me any NHL roster where McLaren and Orr fit.

Show me the playoff team that had 2 players of such low talent on their roster.

George Parros? I can't think of a team that has two full time goons/losers though.

 

[bustaheims]

I just want someone to show me any NHL roster where McLaren and Orr fit.

Show me the playoff team that had 2 players of such low talent on their roster.

Calgary and Buffalo have a few guys of equally questionable talent. The Islanders could have both Carkner and Boulton on their roster to start the season. That's about it, as far as I can tell, and those aren't exactly teams you want to be proud to have similarities with right now - unless you're looking to draft in the top 5.

 

[Highlander]

No more Molten, no more Freezer, we have had enough, forgot to say that to Randy today.

 

[L K]

I think the Shanaplan was to let Carlyle have the rest of the rope to hang himself and try to build the roster to a competitive enought point where we have a chance of making the playoffs. If there is a long losing streak, anything over 8 games, Randy is gone and Spott and Horacheck will finish the season and try to work a deal to remain behind the bench with Babcock as boss.  Perhaps this is already arranged in a conversation on a dock in Muskoka somtime in August. One thing about the Loafs is they always look after their previous player/coaches with nice million dollar golden parachutes.  Think Ron and now Randy C.

Honestly, if Shanahan's plan was the give Carlyle more rope he should have just fired him when he came aboard.  Coaches that reject forward thinking and are historically bad in terms of allowing shots really shouldn't be getting further opportunities. 

 

[Redleaf]

I'm just going to play devils advocate here, and wonder aloud if a coaching change would really make that much of a difference to this particular core group of players.

Dissect away...

 

[Tigger]

So at some point this is on Shanahan, right? Carlyle and Nonis are doing what they did before he got here which, rightly or wrongly, is clearly what they think is best for the club. Shanny is the guy who let that train keep on rolling. Either Shanahan agrees with this sort of thing, which is a serious problem, or he doesn't but is reluctant to make a decision in the best interest in the club which is somehow worse.

Yeah, it's definitely a potential problem. At best, Shanahan is giving Nonis and Carlyle just enough rope to hang themselves, but, if that was his intention, why not just let them go as part of the changes he's already made?

Breathing room while implementing changes? It seems rather absurd to me to think this team was going to be a lot better/different overnight, especially in pre season games, why throw 'Shanny's' guys into that particular fire?

 

[Kin]

Breathing room while implementing changes? It seems rather absurd to me to think this team was going to be a lot better/different overnight, especially in pre season games, why throw 'Shanny's' guys into that particular fire?

I don't think it works that way in this market. If the perception is that keeping Carlyle around is a bad decision then bad decisions don't buy you breathing room.

Shanahan keeping him as coach, and signing him to an extension, makes Carlyle "Shanny's guy" in every way that really matters.

 

[bustaheims]

Breathing room while implementing changes? It seems rather absurd to me to think this team was going to be a lot better/different overnight, especially in pre season games, why throw 'Shanny's' guys into that particular fire?

I think people would generally be more accepting of the team not showing significant improvement quickly if they felt there was at least a real change in the direction it was taking. Hanging on to Nonis and Carlyle - especially the latter - makes it hard to have that perception of the team, even though those working under them have changed. It's hard to believe the team is really making changes when the people in charge still includes the two guys that lead to team to spectacular failure last season.

 

[Kin]

I think people would generally be more accepting of the team not showing significant improvement quickly if they felt there was at least a real change in the direction it was taking.

Yeah, and to that point, even if the belief some people have is that a change in coach wouldn't lead to significant improvement for the team(a view I share, to one degree or the other) then at best Carlyle is obfuscating that fact. If you believe that major changes need to be made to the core of the team than having Carlyle around as a focal point for criticism is incredibly unproductive and will really only lead to a wasted year. 

 

[Redleaf]

Considering the fact that next years draft could potentially be one of the best in quite a while, I wouldn't have a problem with another disappointing season. (Providing its another VERY disappointing one).

Since the cap came along, it seems a teams only chance to 'rise from the ashes' is to select players in the top 10 (maybe even 5) for a number of consecutive years.

Edmonton hasn't realized the potential of doing this yet, but I think most analysts would say its coming soon.

 

[freer]

Considering the fact that next years draft could potentially be one of the best in quite a while, I wouldn't have a problem with another disappointing season. (Providing its another VERY disappointing one).

Since the cap came along, it seems a teams only chance to 'rise from the ashes' is to select players in the top 10 (maybe even 5) for a number of consecutive years.

Edmonton hasn't realized the potential of doing this yet, but I think most analysts would say its coming soon.

Really! you would prefer the team fail so there is chance to get McDavid. I honestly don't get this theory at all.

I would rather have the team just squeak in playoffs. Basing all hopes on a player drafted is a crazy concept to me

 

[bustaheims]

Really! you would prefer the team fail so there is chance to get McDavid. I honestly don't get this theory at all.

I would rather have the team just squeak in playoffs. Basing all hopes on a player drafted is a crazy concept to me

The thing is, progress is sports is rarely achieved by being in the middle of the pack - which is what squeaking in to the playoffs really is. Teams generally either have to be really bad for a while so they can add elite, cost controlled talent, or they have to already by pretty good, so that adding a few pieces will put them over the top. The Leafs are definitely not the latter, but they could definitely be the former. It's short-term pain for (hopefully) long-term gain.