Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[GhostofPotvin29]

Remember when Wilson's teams would get 40 shots on net and lose 4-1? Yeah, good times.

If it's not one thing it's another with this team.

Very true, and important to keep in mind.  Still, not all things are equal: I think shooting but failing to score is a good deal more understandable than being consistently unable to break out of your zone and failing to even register a shot in over 25 minutes.

I guess the added layer of frustration for me is that I keep thinking: if this team can get to 5-4 or 5-5 against a team like the Pens when they're outshot 2:1, imagine what they could accomplish if they could at least semi-reliably exit their own zone.

don't mistake my comment for excusing this team in any way. What I'm getting at is that there's always something 'broken' with this team.

That's the thing - those teams performed well enough for what they were, but they just didn't have the skill. If you have a team of grinders and they get 40 shots on net a night it's not just a recipe for success.  Those teams lacked skilled forwards and had shoddy goaltending - they played well enough to win more games, but they didn't have the talent to finish their chances. 

That is how you'd like to play though.

 

[Frank E]

OK, so they're in a slump now, but all teams go through it.  Looking at the standings, the Leafs are incredibly still on pace for 98 points this season with their current record.

That being said, they need to get out of this funk and play alot better very quickly.

This isn't a funk in my opinion, it's a pattern at this point.

Detroit recently lost 7 in a row (although they got quite a few points in OT/SO) and the fans were ready to jump off a bridge.  Now they've won 3 of 4 and all is well again.  Leafs can still turn it around.

But how did they play in those games they lost?  It doesn't mean much without context.  You could see the Leafs poor play leading to this, their 4-5-1 record going into last night.  This isn't really a team in a funk, they haven't played well all season but got by on elite goaltending and some hot shooting to start the season.

I haven't seen anything yet to tell me this is just a funk they're going through, they've been this outplayed pretty much all season save for a few glimmers of hope.

I have to agree to a certain extent, they haven't played well.  I would like to see a little bit of a shake up in the roster...Randy's line shake-ups don't seem to be getting it done.

If a head coach change isn't in the cards, maybe Nonis fires an assistant and brings another one in.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

OK, so they're in a slump now, but all teams go through it.  Looking at the standings, the Leafs are incredibly still on pace for 98 points this season with their current record.

That being said, they need to get out of this funk and play alot better very quickly.

This isn't a funk in my opinion, it's a pattern at this point.

Detroit recently lost 7 in a row (although they got quite a few points in OT/SO) and the fans were ready to jump off a bridge.  Now they've won 3 of 4 and all is well again.  Leafs can still turn it around.

But how did they play in those games they lost?  It doesn't mean much without context.  You could see the Leafs poor play leading to this, their 4-5-1 record going into last night.  This isn't really a team in a funk, they haven't played well all season but got by on elite goaltending and some hot shooting to start the season.

I haven't seen anything yet to tell me this is just a funk they're going through, they've been this outplayed pretty much all season save for a few glimmers of hope.

I have to agree to a certain extent, they haven't played well.  I would like to see a little bit of a shake up in the roster...Randy's line shake-ups don't seem to be getting it done.

If a head coach change isn't in the cards, maybe Nonis fires an assistant and brings another one in.

I really don't know what it is, but the fact that I cannot recall seeing a Leafs team play like this, or get outplayed like this, to such a degree makes me think it is something in the coaching strategy.  Something isn't working.

 

[Erndog]

OK, so they're in a slump now, but all teams go through it.  Looking at the standings, the Leafs are incredibly still on pace for 98 points this season with their current record.

That being said, they need to get out of this funk and play alot better very quickly.

This isn't a funk in my opinion, it's a pattern at this point.

Detroit recently lost 7 in a row (although they got quite a few points in OT/SO) and the fans were ready to jump off a bridge.  Now they've won 3 of 4 and all is well again.  Leafs can still turn it around.

But how did they play in those games they lost?  It doesn't mean much without context.  You could see the Leafs poor play leading to this, their 4-5-1 record going into last night.  This isn't really a team in a funk, they haven't played well all season but got by on elite goaltending and some hot shooting to start the season.

I haven't seen anything yet to tell me this is just a funk they're going through, they've been this outplayed pretty much all season save for a few glimmers of hope.

I have to agree to a certain extent, they haven't played well.  I would like to see a little bit of a shake up in the roster...Randy's line shake-ups don't seem to be getting it done.

If a head coach change isn't in the cards, maybe Nonis fires an assistant and brings another one in.

I really don't know what it is, but the fact that I cannot recall seeing a Leafs team play like this, or get outplayed like this, to such a degree makes me think it is something in the coaching strategy.  Something isn't working.

I'm with you.  It's extremely dissapointing watching this team get severly outworked, outskated, outshot and outchanced.  What's more dissapointing is that they have some decent/good players too!

This isn't the Hagman/Blake/Stajan/Stempniak years.  This team has a lot of skill and some nice parts.  Why we get so outplayed is beyond me.  And it's not "1 game on, 1 game off"... it's basically an every game occurance.  Whether we play Buffalo or Calgary, or Pittsburgh or Chicago, we are getting demolished in almost every facet of the game.

 

[Frank E]

OK, so they're in a slump now, but all teams go through it.  Looking at the standings, the Leafs are incredibly still on pace for 98 points this season with their current record.

That being said, they need to get out of this funk and play alot better very quickly.

This isn't a funk in my opinion, it's a pattern at this point.

Detroit recently lost 7 in a row (although they got quite a few points in OT/SO) and the fans were ready to jump off a bridge.  Now they've won 3 of 4 and all is well again.  Leafs can still turn it around.

But how did they play in those games they lost?  It doesn't mean much without context.  You could see the Leafs poor play leading to this, their 4-5-1 record going into last night.  This isn't really a team in a funk, they haven't played well all season but got by on elite goaltending and some hot shooting to start the season.

I haven't seen anything yet to tell me this is just a funk they're going through, they've been this outplayed pretty much all season save for a few glimmers of hope.

I have to agree to a certain extent, they haven't played well.  I would like to see a little bit of a shake up in the roster...Randy's line shake-ups don't seem to be getting it done.

If a head coach change isn't in the cards, maybe Nonis fires an assistant and brings another one in.

I really don't know what it is, but the fact that I cannot recall seeing a Leafs team play like this, or get outplayed like this, to such a degree makes me think it is something in the coaching strategy.  Something isn't working.

I know we like simplistic answers that we can point to and say "Here's the problem...", but it's not just one thing.  Too many dumb give-aways/rookie moves in the defensive zone, no offensive zone pressure or cycle game, getting beat to pucks all the time, chasing the play instead of leading it...it's just frustrating to watch.

I caught some of the game last night, and even up 4-1, I just didn't get the sense that they were going to win.  They really don't have a shut-down game.

I have to think that Nonis is frustrated as well.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Bottom line is, there's something very wrong with this team. I'm slowly coming around that coaching is an issue. AS is personnel. That being said, coaching is generally the easier of the two to change unless Nonis can trade out a player that many on the team feel is integral. That may give them the kick in the gonads they need.

The 19 - 0 shots for 25 minutes last night is disheartening as a fan and if it isn't embarassing for each of those players and the coaching staff..well, then they're all garbage. The only game I can remember the Leafs having so little offensive output was when they only had 6 shots(the whole game) against the Devils in the 2000 playoffs.

 

[bustaheims]

But last night as an example, what the hell happened between the 2nd and the 3rd?  Shots were 29-24 after 2, the Leafs weren't getting badly outplayed at all for the first 40.

It wasn't just between the 2nd and the third. It started in the 2nd after Kadri's penalty. The Pens grabbed some momentum and became too much for the Leafs to contain with the type of defensive system they're implementing, while, on the flip side, the Leafs started to struggle to break through Pittsburgh's defensive system. They weren't getting badly outplayed yet, but there were definite signs for trouble. Pittsburgh was also getting quality scoring chances all night. The system they're playing just doesn't mesh with their talent. The Leafs are built to be a very fast, counter attack/rush team, despite what Carlyle wants them to be. They need to play in a way that takes advantage of that. Part of it, IMO, means being much more aggressive defensively and creating turnovers. They're a very passive team defensively, and they're just not defensively gifted enough to play that way. give a team like Pittsburgh the momentum, and they'll take full advantage of that. Last night's 3rd period may have been an extreme example of that, but, it's only an outlier because the Leafs had no shots of their own. Other teams have had similar periods of dominance against the Leafs this season, but the Leafs have managed to put the puck on net a couple times while it's been going on.

 

[bustaheims]

The offense has been scoring.

mirtle: Malkin leads the NHL with 20 points in November. The Leafs have only 21 goals in the same span.

The Leafs are averaging less than 2 goals a game in November. Take away shootout goals, and they've scored more than 1 goal in only 4 of 11 games this month. The offence has not been scoring - in large part because the puck spends to much time in the defensive end.

 

[Kin]

I know we like simplistic answers that we can point to and say "Here's the problem...", but it's not just one thing.  Too many dumb give-aways/rookie moves in the defensive zone, no offensive zone pressure or cycle game, getting beat to pucks all the time, chasing the play instead of leading it...it's just frustrating to watch.

I think that's well said and I think it sort of gets at what I was trying to say last night where, on this board at least, Leafs fans have sort of indulged in a tendency towards easy scapegoating and simplistic answers and while I think coaching is absolutely an area where there have been questions marks this season I feel like the attention it's drawn is at least in part owing to the fact that some bigger issues have been exposed and they've revealed something troubling long term about the club and that's run counter to a lot of opinion concerning various players.

 

[TML fan]

I think @Hope_Smoke on Twitter put it best, that Carlyle is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with this team.

I said those exact words last season and got laughed at. Guess I should have put them on twitter. 

 

[TML fan]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

If it's not Carlyle that has got them playing like that, then he's lost the ability to get them to play the way he wants. Either way, it's the coach's problem and he's the one who has to answer for it.

 

[TML fan]

The Leafs only use their speed to exploit the opportunities they are given. The rest of the time they're content to just let the other team come at them. When they DON'T do that, and actually create their own chances by establishing an aggressive forecheck and make shorter passes on breakouts, they are a much better team. In order words, when they play offence, they're better at defence.

I suppose the difference then, is that I haven't seen their periods of effective play as ones characterized by an aggressive forecheck and the results thereof. I've seen them scoring goals off the rush which I think is what does play to their strengths. I don't think they have the skillset to be the sort of aggressive puck controlling team you think they ought to be in the tough moments.

When you're in a tie game, how can you expect to win when the other team has the puck in their end, and the Leafs have 4 skaters at their own blue line?

By continuing to try and generate chances off the rush. I know it's not the best of options but, and I suppose this is the crux of how we see things differently, I don't think there's much else for them to do. I don't think that if you have Kessel and JVR down low on the forecheck you're going to generate a ton of chances off it.

And no, Clarkson isn't the problem. The fact that the Leafs never have the damn puck is. It's the reason they got him. They know their puck possession sucks, but he's just one guy.

I didn't say Clarkson was "the problem" I said that, contrary to your assertion, his acquisition hasn't single-handedly added the secondary dimension to the Leafs game that you sort of said was the motivation behind it. Now that very well might have been an unfair expectation to put on him but as you sort of point here he's one guy. One guy does not fix a problem or add a new dimension to a team so, ultimately, they have to stay largely within the same parameters they did before him.

This is where I ask: did you watch the playoffs at all last year? Because they are certainly capable of doing the things you say they aren't.

 

[TML fan]

I know we like simplistic answers that we can point to and say "Here's the problem...", but it's not just one thing.  Too many dumb give-aways/rookie moves in the defensive zone, no offensive zone pressure or cycle game, getting beat to pucks all the time, chasing the play instead of leading it...it's just frustrating to watch.

I think that's well said and I think it sort of gets at what I was trying to say last night where, on this board at least, Leafs fans have sort of indulged in a tendency towards easy scapegoating and simplistic answers and while I think coaching is absolutely an area where there have been questions marks this season I feel like the attention it's drawn is at least in part owing to the fact that some bigger issues have been exposed and they've revealed something troubling long term about the club and that's run counter to a lot of opinion concerning various players.

I'm sorry but saying "player x sucks and is dumb" is as much a cop out as "coach coaches a stupid style of hockey that isn't conducive to winning long term."

 

[TML fan]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

So what you're telling me is the system they are taught prevented them from getting a shot in 25 minutes? Somehow I doubt that. It just doesn't make sense that any coach would have a system implemented that would teach this. The fact that Kessel, Bozak, JVR, Kadri and company didn't get a shot for 25 minutes is a result of them not doing their jobs not the coach saying "Keep the puck in our zone for the next period! Screw playing hockey!"

Whatever it is, there's either a disconnect and the players aren't getting it, or they simple are too crap to play the system he wants.  Either that or they don't care and tune him out.  I'm sure Carlyle's system doesn't call to sit back for the final 25 minutes and absorb pressure as you said.

You see, I don't blame it on the system. That very system netted them 5 goals in the first 2 periods. Why would they suddenly shut him out after the 2nd intermission? I mean, unless he walked in and insulted all their mothers.

This team plays scared. Whether game 7 is still in their head or not, they play like it is. They're terrified to make a mistake. It's like they think that once a goal is scored against them, 3 or 4 more are coming. As a fan, I kind of feel the same way.

But why though? Why does a team with a 4-1 lead play scared?

 

[moon111]

I think it would be easy to assemble six defensemen on an NHL club and see Morgan Rielly, Paul Ranger, Jake Gardiner, Carl Gunnarsson, Mark Fraser on the Marlies/junior.  Liles was a -1 in the regular season, +4 in the playoffs.  Maybe if Nonis doesn't sign so many heavy contracts, Liles would be playing and providing a more steady ship?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

If it's not Carlyle that has got them playing like that, then he's lost the ability to get them to play the way he wants. Either way, it's the coach's problem and he's the one who has to answer for it.

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

I think it's actually the opposite. That a team with players like Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Clarkson and, to a lesser extent, Raymond, Kulemin, Bozak, Phaneuf and Rielly, should be unable to get one shot on net for over an hour tells me that there is something wrong on the coaching and system side of things. If this were a less talented team I would be more inclined to agree with your assessment.

So what you're telling me is the system they are taught prevented them from getting a shot in 25 minutes? Somehow I doubt that. It just doesn't make sense that any coach would have a system implemented that would teach this. The fact that Kessel, Bozak, JVR, Kadri and company didn't get a shot for 25 minutes is a result of them not doing their jobs not the coach saying "Keep the puck in our zone for the next period! Screw playing hockey!"

Whatever it is, there's either a disconnect and the players aren't getting it, or they simple are too crap to play the system he wants.  Either that or they don't care and tune him out.  I'm sure Carlyle's system doesn't call to sit back for the final 25 minutes and absorb pressure as you said.

You see, I don't blame it on the system. That very system netted them 5 goals in the first 2 periods. Why would they suddenly shut him out after the 2nd intermission? I mean, unless he walked in and insulted all their mothers.

This team plays scared. Whether game 7 is still in their head or not, they play like it is. They're terrified to make a mistake. It's like they think that once a goal is scored against them, 3 or 4 more are coming. As a fan, I kind of feel the same way.

But why though? Why does a team with a 4-1 lead play scared?

I'm not sure, but I'm sure you'll tell me that it's Carlyle's fault.

 

[bustaheims]

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

I don't think anyone expects a new coach to change things overnight. Change takes time. What we're saying is that whatever Carlyle is doing is not working, and, since it doesn't appear as though he's capable of changing things in a positive direction, someone else should be given the opportunity to do so before it's too late.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Leafs are averaging less than 2 goals a game in November. Take away shootout goals, and they've scored more than 1 goal in only 4 of 11 games this month. The offence has not been scoring - in large part because the puck spends to much time in the defensive end.

Wow, that's actually much worse than I thought it was.

 

[hap_leaf]

I think personnel changes will be on the horizon after what we have witnessed lately.  We have assets, especially Reimer, that could be exchanged for a number of problem areas. 

My question revolves around the square peg analysis: Does Nonis make moves based on how he thinks the coach will use the new player in this failing system OR get players to help get out of this system and onto a different course? This is all moot if Carlyle is insistent in achieving success in whatever his system is, regardless of the personnel.  Which I think that we can agree that we have seen evidence of this.

Carlyle is a proud guy.  He won't be told what type of system he has (Trotz).  He won't be told what that 4th line will be (Orr again?).  He will leave you reporters to surmise his starting goalie by who leaves the ice first in practice.  That's the way I operate! 

I am so curious on the dynamic between he and Nonis when they sort these issues out at the table.  Imagine the discussions they will have after last night.