Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[TML fan]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

If it's not Carlyle that has got them playing like that, then he's lost the ability to get them to play the way he wants. Either way, it's the coach's problem and he's the one who has to answer for it.

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

I'm not saying a new coach will suddenly fix all the problems. I'm saying Randy Carlyle won't.

 

[bustaheims]

mirtle: Of note: The Leafs were outshot by an average of 33.4 to 22.9 in 12 April games last season. This has been going on for a while.

 

[Kin]

I'm sorry but saying "player x sucks and is dumb" is as much a cop out as "coach coaches a stupid style of hockey that isn't conducive to winning long term."

I agree but no one is saying that though. Saying that the team's flaws lies in the roster's construction as opposed to the way it's being implemented is neither singling out a single player as "sucking" or is it labeling them as dumb.

 

[Tigger]

Personally I don't like or understand a few personnel choices, Orr, McClaren to name a couple, but that's fairly insignificant compared to what Randy has to work with in terms of talent and results. The fact is he doesn't really have a grinding team, he has a fast team that scores off the rush, has great goaltending and special teams ( well the PK has slipped but it has been a positive until recently ). He has a real dogs breakfast in terms of defence but they do lend themselves to scoring off the rush too.

They lack significant shutdown ability, a little more noticeably with Bolland out. They're geared one way and I'm not sure changing to a trap system or some such will pay tangible dividends, it may create more confusion. They need to address the balance on the roster, I think, before we can really expect to see much in the way of change i.e., a more competitive team. Until then I don't know what any coach would do given the tools in the box. 'Work harder' isn't really a system yet sometimes it seems that's what it boils down to.

Injuries and suspensions have played a part as well.

So sure, get rid of the face punchers please but I kind of doubt that alone is going to make or break this team.

 

[Stickytape]

A team that gets outshot 19-0 in the 3rd and OT is not a team that solely has coaching problems. There's a whole list of issues with this team and coaching is just a small part of it IMO.

If it's not Carlyle that has got them playing like that, then he's lost the ability to get them to play the way he wants. Either way, it's the coach's problem and he's the one who has to answer for it.

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

I'm not saying a new coach will suddenly fix all the problems. I'm saying Randy Carlyle won't.

^ yep, that.

If it's a choice between "it may slowly, eventually get better" and "it will never get better, and will maybe get worse", I'll take the first one, thanks.

 

[TML fan]

I'm sorry but saying "player x sucks and is dumb" is as much a cop out as "coach coaches a stupid style of hockey that isn't conducive to winning long term."

I agree but no one is saying that though. Saying that the team's flaws lies in the roster's construction as opposed to the way it's being implemented is neither singling out a single player as "sucking" or is it labeling them as dumb.

There's nothing wrong with the roster construction. It's not perfect but its hardly flawed. Its built to play a certain way which our coach is incapable or unwilling to coach.

 

[Erndog]

I don't understand, for the life of me, why we continously dress Orr and Mclaren.  We aren't even fighting anymore.  I can only remember Orr fighting twice this year (Parros in game 1, and a week or so ago when the linesman broke it up before it started).

Teams have stopped fighting us.  And thats fine.  But why continously dress 2 face punchers who do absolutely nothing else?  At the very least, maybe a guy like Holland or Smith or Leivo or Ashton could generate *something*.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

I don't think anyone expects a new coach to change things overnight. Change takes time. What we're saying is that whatever Carlyle is doing is not working, and, since it doesn't appear as though he's capable of changing things in a positive direction, someone else should be given the opportunity to do so before it's too late.

Carlyle has had 91 or 92 games as the coach of this team so far.  Is that considered enough to bring a young team that was completely in the toilet out of it to becoming a contending team? They've come a long, long way since he did take over.

Considering some of the roster holes there are and the fact he's already coached them to the playoffs where this rag tag squad nearly beat the Bruins, I think in the big picture they are doing 'okay'. 

Clearly they are not contender status, nor should they have been considered that to begin with. so with that said, teams a level below that are going to go through messy patches. 

Alll that said... This team is having a lot of trouble taking the next big step forward into a team that can steadily beat its opponents or at least go nose to nose all game long.  Sometimes it does take a coaching change to make that next step, but sometimes patience helps too.  Hundreds of examples where a team changes the coach and things take off.... Carlyle took them a huge step forward but maybe he can't take them the next step.  I'm not sure either way, not yet.

 

[Kin]

There's nothing wrong with the roster construction. It's not perfect but its hardly flawed. Its built to play a certain way which our coach is incapable or unwilling to coach.

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to fundamentally disagree on that basis then. If you didn't watch last night's game and see a big, flashing neon sign that said the Leafs' best players aren't as good as the Penguins' then we're probably not going to see eye to eye.

 

[bustaheims]

Teams have stopped fighting us.  And thats fine.  But why continously dress 2 face punchers who do absolutely nothing else?  At the very least, maybe a guy like Holland or Smith or Leivo or Ashton could generate *something*.

That's not really true, as the Leafs do lead the league in fighting majors. I'd argue that it hasn't contributed to the team at all, which I think you'd agree with, but, the fights are still taking place.

 

[Corn Flake]

I'm sorry but saying "player x sucks and is dumb" is as much a cop out as "coach coaches a stupid style of hockey that isn't conducive to winning long term."

I agree but no one is saying that though. Saying that the team's flaws lies in the roster's construction as opposed to the way it's being implemented is neither singling out a single player as "sucking" or is it labeling them as dumb.

Maybe not in here (although some are close), but there is a HUUUUGE faction of fans in other places who are saying exactly that about Carlyle, Nonis and even Leiwike, calling them "dumb" and "stupid" etc etc. 

I find it incredibly immature and melodramatic.  But not all fans play with a full deck.

 

[Erndog]

Teams have stopped fighting us.  And thats fine.  But why continously dress 2 face punchers who do absolutely nothing else?  At the very least, maybe a guy like Holland or Smith or Leivo or Ashton could generate *something*.

That's not really true, as the Leafs do lead the league in fighting majors. I'd argue that it hasn't contributed to the team at all, which I think you'd agree with, but, the fights are still taking place.

They had like 5 fights that first game against MTL.  I haven't seen too many that matter since.  Certainly not from Orr.

I agree entirelty though, they've (the fights.... and Mclaren/Orr) have contributed nothing. 

 

[Kin]

Maybe not in here (although some are close), but there is a HUUUUGE faction of fans in other places who are saying exactly that about Carlyle, Nonis and even Leiwike, calling them "dumb" and "stupid" etc etc. 

I find it incredibly immature and melodramatic.  But not all fans play with a full deck.

I'd probably agree with that, I was just disagreeing with the notion that the argument he was referring to could be summed up by singling out a player as "dumb" or bad.

 

[Erndog]

I think it's extremely short sighted to think that a new coach suddenly fixes all the problems we're seeing. That is my only issue with the fire Randy chants.

If a coaching change is made and the Leafs are suddenly world beaters, I'll happily eat my words.

I don't think anyone expects a new coach to change things overnight. Change takes time. What we're saying is that whatever Carlyle is doing is not working, and, since it doesn't appear as though he's capable of changing things in a positive direction, someone else should be given the opportunity to do so before it's too late.

Carlyle has had 91 or 92 games as the coach of this team so far.  Is that considered enough to bring a young team that was completely in the toilet out of it to becoming a contending team? They've come a long, long way since he did take over.

Considering some of the roster holes there are and the fact he's already coached them to the playoffs where this rag tag squad nearly beat the Bruins, I think in the big picture they are doing 'okay'. 

Clearly they are not contender status, nor should they have been considered that to begin with. so with that said, teams a level below that are going to go through messy patches. 

Alll that said... This team is having a lot of trouble taking the next big step forward into a team that can steadily beat its opponents or at least go nose to nose all game long.  Sometimes it does take a coaching change to make that next step, but sometimes patience helps too.  Hundreds of examples where a team changes the coach and things take off.... Carlyle took them a huge step forward but maybe he can't take them the next step.  I'm not sure either way, not yet.

We're regressing though.

Last 12 games last year we were outshot an average of 33 to 22.

This year has been a debacle of epic porprotions.  I have never seen something like this save for an expansion team.  Getting outplayed, outshot and outchanced every single game by a wide margin.  I'm not sure we've outshot/outchanced the opposition more than once or twice in the last 23 games or whatever. 

The goaltending has masked a LOT of problems.

 

[bustaheims]

Carlyle has had 91 or 92 games as the coach of this team so far.  Is that considered enough to bring a young team that was completely in the toilet out of it to becoming a contending team? They've come a long, long way since he did take over.

I don't know if I'd agree that they've come a long way under Carlyle. They've enjoyed more success, sure, but, that's largely for one very easily identifiable reason - the goaltending has been significantly better since Carlyle's taken over. Carlyle may have some influence there, but, honestly, I'd say the team's overall play has regressed significantly in the past couple months, to the point where the hockey they're playing is worse than it was when Wilson took over.

Considering some of the roster holes there are and the fact he's already coached them to the playoffs where this rag tag squad nearly beat the Bruins, I think in the big picture they are doing 'okay'. 

Teams that are doing 'okay' don't get outshot by 20 or more on a regular basis, like the Leafs have been. The only things about the Leafs are are 'okay' right now are the PP and the goaltending.

Clearly they are not contender status, nor should they have been considered that to begin with. so with that said, teams a level below that are going to go through messy patches.

This isn't just a messy patch. This is a sustained issue. A fundamental flaw that relates back to last season. This isn't just a bad month, this is the part of a downward spiral when it comes to the team's overall level of play.
 

Alll that said... This team is having a lot of trouble taking the next big step forward into a team that can steadily beat its opponents or at least go nose to nose all game long.  Sometimes it does take a coaching change to make that next step, but sometimes patience helps too.  Hundreds of examples where a team changes the coach and things take off.... Carlyle took them a huge step forward but maybe he can't take them the next step.  I'm not sure either way, not yet.

The goaltending took a huge step forward. Carlyle was there to benefit from that. Last season, the PK took a huge step forward, but that's largely been the domain of the assistant coaches. The PP has been good - also, largely the domain of the assistant coaches, and something that a team with the offensive talent this one has doesn't need much help from them to be successful. Honestly, I'd be really hard pressed to give much, if any, of the credit for recent successes to Carlyle. It's largely been due to areas that he has little influence on, and the largest area where he does influence - 5 on 5 play - was pretty mediocre last season and has been pretty bad this season.

 

[Erndog]

Carlyle has had 91 or 92 games as the coach of this team so far.  Is that considered enough to bring a young team that was completely in the toilet out of it to becoming a contending team? They've come a long, long way since he did take over.

I don't know if I'd agree that they've come a long way under Carlyle. They've enjoyed more success, sure, but, that's largely for one very easily identifiable reason - the goaltending has been significantly better since Carlyle's taken over. Carlyle may have some influence there, but, honestly, I'd say the team's overall play has regressed significantly in the past couple months, to the point where the hockey they're playing is worse than it was when Wilson took over.

I just basically said this.  But you said it better.

So Im quoting you to highlight it.

We have not improved 1 aota since Carlyle took over, save for the goaltending.

 

[bustaheims]

They had like 5 fights that first game against MTL.  I haven't seen too many that matter since.  Certainly not from Orr.

Orr and McLaren each have 4 fights this season. So, about one every 6 games. Certainly not worth having them take up a spot on the bench for the 5 minutes of ice time they're getting and contributing nothing with.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's not really true, as the Leafs do lead the league in fighting majors.

You're full of surprising stats today. I would have guessed that we're middle of the pack in that regard. It really doesn't feel like the team is fighting very often.

 

[TML fan]

There's nothing wrong with the roster construction. It's not perfect but its hardly flawed. Its built to play a certain way which our coach is incapable or unwilling to coach.

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to fundamentally disagree on that basis then. If you didn't watch last night's game and see a big, flashing neon sign that said the Leafs' best players aren't as good as the Penguins' then we're probably not going to see eye to eye.

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

 

[Kin]

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

And like I said, I think that's going to be where we disagree fundamentally. I really think coaching is a significantly less important issue just in general than where the team stacks up talent wise, especially as it relates to the sorts of players they'll need to rely on to get it done at key moments.