Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[bustaheims]

You're full of surprising stats today. I would have guessed that we're middle of the pack in that regard. It really doesn't feel like the team is fighting very often.

21 fighting majors on the season, so far. Only 2 more than Buffalo, who come in 2nd. They're not way out in front like they were last season (though, they're fighting at a similar pace - they'd have 40 in 48 at their current pace, compared to 44 last season), but they're still leading the way.

 

[Erndog]

There's nothing wrong with the roster construction. It's not perfect but its hardly flawed. Its built to play a certain way which our coach is incapable or unwilling to coach.

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to fundamentally disagree on that basis then. If you didn't watch last night's game and see a big, flashing neon sign that said the Leafs' best players aren't as good as the Penguins' then we're probably not going to see eye to eye.

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

I'd have to agree.

We generated 15 shots (or whatever it was) and lost 6-0 to Columbus.  We have better players then them.

There's something fundamentally wrong here.  We can't continously be outplayed and out chanced game after game without their being something inheritently wrong.

 

[Corn Flake]

We're regressing though.

Last 12 games last year we were outshot an average of 33 to 22.

This year has been a debacle of epic porprotions.  I have never seen something like this save for an expansion team.  Getting outplayed, outshot and outchanced every single game by a wide margin.  I'm not sure we've outshot/outchanced the opposition more than once or twice in the last 23 games or whatever. 

The goaltending has masked a LOT of problems.

The whole year hasn't been a debacle.  I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here, where we are cherry picking some bad games and using those to write  off a whole season that for the first part produced some good results.  They have had a lousy November.  They had a very good October.  The only anomaly there is shots on goal but that can't be the defining factor in a team being considered good or bad. It's a contributor.

They worked their tails off last night but couldn't handle the Pens in the 3rd.  Is that impending doom? Not to me.  Frustrating as hell? For sure. You take away that stupid 5 on 3 which became a 5 on 2 when Bozak lost his stick, and Malkin takes a penalty and no goal after shoving Bernier to score and it's a different game. Anyway, that's just one game.  I didn't see effort as the issue. Effort WAS the issue vs. Columbus for sure.

By my count if they reduced SOG against by 5-6 and increase their SOG by 4-5 and they would be middle of the pack on shots.  But is that really going to mean they are suddenly dominant, even if it was 10 shots in each direction? 

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

 

[Kin]

We generated 15 shots (or whatever it was) and lost 6-0 to Columbus.  We have better players then them.

That's true but I feel like that's probably better reflected by the fact that the Leafs have a better record than Columbus than it is something that happens in one bad game.

 

[TML fan]

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

And like I said, I think that's going to be where we disagree fundamentally. I really think coaching is a significantly less important issue just in general than where the team stacks up talent wise, especially as it relates to the sorts of players they'll need to rely on to get it done at key moments.

Ok.

 

[drummond]

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

And like I said, I think that's going to be where we disagree fundamentally. I really think coaching is a significantly less important issue just in general than where the team stacks up talent wise, especially as it relates to the sorts of players they'll need to rely on to get it done at key moments.

Against Columbus the Leafs were supposed to be by far superior team talent wise. However, they were totaly unmotivated. That is in my mind coaching issue. Ditto Nashville game.

 

[bustaheims]

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

In the CuJo year, the Leafs were never outshot by an average of more than 2.7 shots per game in any season. Right now, they're being outshot by an average of 10 shots a night. Only one other team in the league is being outshot by an average of more than 4.8 shots a night - Buffalo. Last season, it was 6 shots a night, which tied them for the worst differential in the league with Edmonton.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The last two seasons, 73 regular season games, the Leafs are averaging 26.2 shots per game and 33.6 shots against per game.  I haven't gone through each team, but just looking at the two seasons and where they rank in each season you know it's last or 2nd last differential in that time frame.

Leafs had extraordinarily high SH% at 5 on 5 last season and it has regressed thus far this season.  You need to fire more pucks on net to score more goals if you're not shooting 10% - but they're not doing that.

 

[Erndog]

We're regressing though.

Last 12 games last year we were outshot an average of 33 to 22.

This year has been a debacle of epic porprotions.  I have never seen something like this save for an expansion team.  Getting outplayed, outshot and outchanced every single game by a wide margin.  I'm not sure we've outshot/outchanced the opposition more than once or twice in the last 23 games or whatever. 

The goaltending has masked a LOT of problems.

The whole year hasn't been a debacle.  I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here, where we are cherry picking some bad games and using those to write  off a whole season that for the first part produced some good results.  They have had a lousy November.  They had a very good October.  The only anomaly there is shots on goal but that can't be the defining factor in a team being considered good or bad. It's a contributor.

They worked their tails off last night but couldn't handle the Pens in the 3rd.  Is that impending doom? Not to me.  Frustrating as hell? For sure. You take away that stupid 5 on 3 which became a 5 on 2 when Bozak lost his stick, and Malkin takes a penalty and no goal after shoving Bernier to score and it's a different game. Anyway, that's just one game.  I didn't see effort as the issue. Effort WAS the issue vs. Columbus for sure.

By my count if they reduced SOG against by 5-6 and increase their SOG by 4-5 and they would be middle of the pack on shots.  But is that really going to mean they are suddenly dominant, even if it was 10 shots in each direction? 

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

I think if any revisionist history is taking place its you in the Cujo years.  I never remember being this heavily outshot - ever.

Even at the beginning of this year I said we were in for massive trouble (you'd just have to take my word for that lol).  Against Philly we were lucky to win after being significant outshot, against Minny we were handed our ass at home but luckily came out okay, agianst Carolina and Chicago we stunk... against Vancouver we were embarassed.  Even CALGARY significant outplayed us.  columbus has beaten us handily twice.  Even Buffalo gave us a run for their money... that second game they destroyed us in the 3rd period.

This has been going on all year, without fail, game in and game out.  We are being heavily outplayed and outshot to the point where if we aren't outshot by at least 10 than its considered a good game.

 

[Erndog]

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

In the CuJo year, the Leafs were never outshot by an average of more than 2.7 shots per game in any season. Right now, they're being outshot by an average of 10 shots a night. Only one other team in the league is being outshot by an average of more than 4.8 shots a night - Buffalo. Last season, it was 6 shots a night, which tied them for the worst differential in the league with Edmonton.

anddd there ya go.  Cujo years were far better than this debacle we've been unfortunately witnessing.

 

[Kin]

Against Columbus the Leafs were supposed to be by far superior team talent wise.

Yeah, I didn't watch that one so I can't speak specifically to it but I would disagree that A) the talent difference is as pronounced as you say and B) that even if it was a poor showing should be chalked up to motivation. It was, if I'm not mistaken, their third game in four nights and that strikes me as going a long ways to explaining a poor showing.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

In the CuJo year, the Leafs were never outshot by an average of more than 2.7 shots per game in any season. Right now, they're being outshot by an average of 10 shots a night. Only one other team in the league is being outshot by an average of more than 4.8 shots a night - Buffalo. Last season, it was 6 shots a night, which tied them for the worst differential in the league with Edmonton.

Even under Wilson the worst they fell to was a differential of 3 shots, and in his first season the Leafs actually averaged more shots than the opposition.

It's really been in the last 73 games that this has happened.

 

[bustaheims]

It was, if I'm not mistaken, their third game in four nights and that strikes me as going a long ways to explaining a poor showing.

It was not. Their last set of back to backs was a week before the Columbus game.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Oh I can see that just fine. That's not why they lost, nor is it why they are consistently outplayed.

And like I said, I think that's going to be where we disagree fundamentally. I really think coaching is a significantly less important issue just in general than where the team stacks up talent wise, especially as it relates to the sorts of players they'll need to rely on to get it done at key moments.

Against Columbus the Leafs were supposed to be by far superior team talent wise. However, they were totaly unmotivated. That is in my mind coaching issue. Ditto Nashville game.

You could be correct. Is it not also an issue with the players make up?

 

[Kin]

It was, if I'm not mistaken, their third game in four nights and that strikes me as going a long ways to explaining a poor showing.

It was not. Their last set of back to backs was a week before the Columbus game.

Right you are. Third game in five, not four.

 

[drummond]

Against Columbus the Leafs were supposed to be by far superior team talent wise.

Yeah, I didn't watch that one so I can't speak specifically to it but I would disagree that A) the talent difference is as pronounced as you say and B) that even if it was a poor showing should be chalked up to motivation. It was, if I'm not mistaken, their third game in four nights and that strikes me as going a long ways to explaining a poor showing.

The Leafs played 5 games in a row at home... Columbus on the other hand had been travelling extensivelly before the game itself.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We're regressing though.

Last 12 games last year we were outshot an average of 33 to 22.

This year has been a debacle of epic porprotions.  I have never seen something like this save for an expansion team.  Getting outplayed, outshot and outchanced every single game by a wide margin.  I'm not sure we've outshot/outchanced the opposition more than once or twice in the last 23 games or whatever. 

The goaltending has masked a LOT of problems.

The whole year hasn't been a debacle.  I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here, where we are cherry picking some bad games and using those to write  off a whole season that for the first part produced some good results.  They have had a lousy November.  They had a very good October.  The only anomaly there is shots on goal but that can't be the defining factor in a team being considered good or bad. It's a contributor.

They worked their tails off last night but couldn't handle the Pens in the 3rd.  Is that impending doom? Not to me.  Frustrating as hell? For sure. You take away that stupid 5 on 3 which became a 5 on 2 when Bozak lost his stick, and Malkin takes a penalty and no goal after shoving Bernier to score and it's a different game. Anyway, that's just one game.  I didn't see effort as the issue. Effort WAS the issue vs. Columbus for sure.

By my count if they reduced SOG against by 5-6 and increase their SOG by 4-5 and they would be middle of the pack on shots.  But is that really going to mean they are suddenly dominant, even if it was 10 shots in each direction? 

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

I think if any revisionist history is taking place its you in the Cujo years.  I never remember being this heavily outshot - ever.

Even at the beginning of this year I said we were in for massive trouble (you'd just have to take my word for that lol).  Against Philly we were lucky to win after being significant outshot, against Minny we were handed our ass at home but luckily came out okay, agianst Carolina and Chicago we stunk... against Vancouver we were embarassed.  Even CALGARY significant outplayed us.  columbus has beaten us handily twice.  Even Buffalo gave us a run for their money... that second game they destroyed us in the 3rd period.

This has been going on all year, without fail, game in and game out.  We are being heavily outplayed and outshot to the point where if we aren't outshot by at least 10 than its considered a good game.

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

 

[Kin]

The Leafs played 5 games in a row at home... Columbus on the other hand had been travelling extensivelly before the game itself.

I don't know about extensively. In their three games before Toronto you're talking about, like, three hours tops in the air combined from Edmonton to Calgary to Vancouver then three days off before the Leafs.

 

[TML fan]

We're regressing though.

Last 12 games last year we were outshot an average of 33 to 22.

This year has been a debacle of epic porprotions.  I have never seen something like this save for an expansion team.  Getting outplayed, outshot and outchanced every single game by a wide margin.  I'm not sure we've outshot/outchanced the opposition more than once or twice in the last 23 games or whatever. 

The goaltending has masked a LOT of problems.

The whole year hasn't been a debacle.  I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on here, where we are cherry picking some bad games and using those to write  off a whole season that for the first part produced some good results.  They have had a lousy November.  They had a very good October.  The only anomaly there is shots on goal but that can't be the defining factor in a team being considered good or bad. It's a contributor.

They worked their tails off last night but couldn't handle the Pens in the 3rd.  Is that impending doom? Not to me.  Frustrating as hell? For sure. You take away that stupid 5 on 3 which became a 5 on 2 when Bozak lost his stick, and Malkin takes a penalty and no goal after shoving Bernier to score and it's a different game. Anyway, that's just one game.  I didn't see effort as the issue. Effort WAS the issue vs. Columbus for sure.

By my count if they reduced SOG against by 5-6 and increase their SOG by 4-5 and they would be middle of the pack on shots.  But is that really going to mean they are suddenly dominant, even if it was 10 shots in each direction? 

I recall the CUJO years being full of games they were horribly outshot.  yeah they were in over their heads in the first couple but it didn't mean they were a "bad team" with goaltending masking all sorts of warts.  They were like most other teams save a small group of contenders.

I think if any revisionist history is taking place its you in the Cujo years.  I never remember being this heavily outshot - ever.

Even at the beginning of this year I said we were in for massive trouble (you'd just have to take my word for that lol).  Against Philly we were lucky to win after being significant outshot, against Minny we were handed our ass at home but luckily came out okay, agianst Carolina and Chicago we stunk... against Vancouver we were embarassed.  Even CALGARY significant outplayed us.  columbus has beaten us handily twice.  Even Buffalo gave us a run for their money... that second game they destroyed us in the 3rd period.

This has been going on all year, without fail, game in and game out.  We are being heavily outplayed and outshot to the point where if we aren't outshot by at least 10 than its considered a good game.

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

Yeah but it's not the system.

 

[Kin]

It's not new for Carlyle either.  In 2010-11 in Anaheim, the Ducks were 4th worst with 32.3 SA/G, in 2009-10 they were 2nd worst with 33.4 SA/G (coincides with Pronger leaving).

Yeah but it's not the system.

So...Pronger leaves, Carlyle stays and in two years the Ducks go from being pretty good in shots against to one of the worst in the league and it's a system thing?