The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

Marchand and Bergeron are a far cry from Bozak and Crabb. I've already acknowledged he is a good player, but even the best players benefit from playing with good players.

There's absolutely no reason that Crabb and Bozak would have been the upper-tier of Seguin's linemates if he were in Toronto. It could have easily been Grabo and Lupul, a combo that's roughly on par with his Boston linemates in year 2 and significantly better than his Boston linemates in year 1.

Seguin didn't even play in the 1st round and was virtually a non-factor in their playoff run. He also played a fairly limited role with the team all season last year. I think the benefit of him playing with the Bruins last year was largely his and not the team's.

He put up 7 points in 7 games in the Eastern Conference finals. That's not a non-factor even if he didn't do a single other thing in the playoffs. He then played in 6 games of the Stanley Cup final.

But the point isn't that he was great in the playoffs, it's that he was subjected to high pressure situations in Boston.

And, again, this isn't a what if game that has a ton of merit either way.

 

[TML fan]

You're looking at Seguin NOW, what he's doing in a completely different organization in a completely different stage of competitiveness, surrounded tons of support and not being leaned on to be carry any kind of load, on or off the ice, and assuming that he'd develop exactly the same way under completely different circumstances. I just don't think that's realistic. Like any regular person, players are a product of their environment.

For all we know, Seguin would come to Toronto, not even MAKE the roster in his draft year and take 3 years longer to develop to the level he is now, under heavy if not overwhelming scrutiny. By the time Seguin even saw his 1st NHL game he'd be around Kessel's age now with no experience under his belt, and no guarantee he'd turn into half the player he is now. Seguin is a really good player, but I don't think he's exceptional.

I think a prospect like Kadri, or whoever the Leafs draft this year, has a much better chance of success when the expectations are much lower, IE: being surrounded by other players who can carry more of the burden and have the expectations put on them. Any high pick is going to have heightened expectations on a team like the Leafs, but if you shield those players with other players who can take some of that burden away (Like Phil Kessel, who is expected to carry the offensive load for this team) I think your prospects have a much higher chance for success.

This is also why, IMO, Pittsburgh is the exception and not the rule.

I disagree with that mainly because Seguin was touted in his draft year, before the Bruins organization had any hand in his development, as being a can't miss star pick. He is who he is today mainly because he's an exceptional talent, not because the Bruins organization have turned him into something that he wasn't already projected to be as a 17 year old in his draft year.

I could understand that reasoning better if the Bruins had been handed a good but not great prospect and turned him into a star... but it's not as if Seguin has greatly exceeded expectations that people weren't expecting of him.

Lots of players are touted. David Legwand was touted. Patrik Stefan was touted. Alexandre Daigle was touted. They wouldn't have been picked where they were if they weren't touted as can't miss stars.

By exceptional, I'm talking Malkin and Crosby levels. Examples of players who I don't think would have failed under any circumstances. I don't think Seguin would have flunked right out of the league but I don't think he would have developed as rapidly as he has in Boston if he was in Toronto. I believe playing in Boston helped him reach this level sooner than he would have under less than ideal circumstances.

Can't miss stars can miss, for any number of reasons. I believe environment plays a factor, like it does in the development of pretty much everything.

 

[Kin]

I believe environment plays a factor, like it does in the development of pretty much everything.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that but you're the only one saying anything specific about how Seguin might have developed in a different situation. He might have developed better, he may have developed worse and, ultimately, his development isn't anywhere near finished.

 

[TML fan]

Marchand and Bergeron are a far cry from Bozak and Crabb. I've already acknowledged he is a good player, but even the best players benefit from playing with good players.

There's absolutely no reason that Crabb and Bozak would have been the upper-tier of Seguin's linemates if he were in Toronto. It could have easily been Grabo and Lupul, a combo that's roughly on par with his Boston linemates in year 2 and significantly better than his Boston linemates in year 1.

Seguin didn't even play in the 1st round and was virtually a non-factor in their playoff run. He also played a fairly limited role with the team all season last year. I think the benefit of him playing with the Bruins last year was largely his and not the team's.

He put up 7 points in 7 games in the Eastern Conference finals. That's not a non-factor even if he didn't do a single other thing in the playoffs. He then played in 6 games of the Stanley Cup final.

But the point isn't that he was great in the playoffs, it's that he was subjected to high pressure situations in Boston.

And, again, this isn't a what if game that has a ton of merit either way.

The Leafs didn't even have Lupul until January last year. Who knows who he would have played with? I put him with Bozak and Crabb because that's who Kessel played with and Kessel is who he is supposedly better than.

He was subjected to high pressure situations in Boston but was never the main focus. He played under pressure, but all eyes weren't on him. The fact that he performed is a testament to his skill, which I've already acknowledged he has, but it is under completely different circumstances in which he was able to perform.

 

[DieWilsonDie]

Here is why so many of us have a problem with the Leafs.  We have missed the playoffs for the last 7 years and have not steadily improved.  A team that misses the playoffs for that long should at least have 2-3 blue chip prospects, one of the very few benefits of failure; however, this management team (along with the preceding one) have managed to strip this team down of meaningful parts over and over again.  The fans are patient, it is the management that has this false belief that we are not.  Historically this organization has spurned through so many young assets (both prospects and draft picks) for a quick fix that the management in charge (at various points of this team's history) did not stop to think that the solution was within the organization to begin with.  I don't think there is one person here who thought that trading Rask for Raycroft was a good idea.  I don't think there is one person here, who if they were given the right to run the Leafs, would trade two first round picks and a second for a player of undoubted skill (but who is largely one dimensional) from a position of such weakness.  For crying out loud, most of us saw how bad the team Burke was inherited, how did he not? 

 

[TML fan]

I believe environment plays a factor, like it does in the development of pretty much everything.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that but you're the only one saying anything specific about how Seguin might have developed in a different situation. He might have developed better, he may have developed worse and, ultimately, his development isn't anywhere near finished.

It's just an example. Not matter of fact. I'm illustrating that speculation works both ways. What might have been with Seguin isn't necessarily all roses.

 

[TML fan]

I wasn't implying that he wasn't capable. Maybe they just wouldn't have exposed him to the kind of pressure and scrutiny he would have faced here.

I meant to say that his development curve may have been longer in Toronto due to the lack of support and high expectations, not that he wouldn't make the team for 3 years.

If we're going to use Seguin as shorthand for what they gave up for Kessel you have to deal with the realities of what Seguin is.

A not-quite-as-good player as Phil Kessel? I deal with that just fine.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs didn't even have Lupul until January last year. Who knows who he would have played with? I put him with Bozak and Crabb because that's who Kessel played with and Kessel is who he is supposedly better than.

But the reason that this is such an exercise in futility is because you don't know who Seguin might have played with or who he'd have fit in with. Crabb only played on the top line because Kessel didn't fit in well with Grabo(and it's an exageration to just say that Kessel played with him. Crabb only played 48 games in the league and not all of them were on Kessel's line. Kessel played with Crabb for about 1/3 of the season). If Seguin had been on the Leafs he might have had better linemates than in Boston, he might have had worse. There's not a lot of point in speculating on it.

 

[TML fan]

The Leafs didn't even have Lupul until January last year. Who knows who he would have played with? I put him with Bozak and Crabb because that's who Kessel played with and Kessel is who he is supposedly better than.

But the reason that this is such an exercise in futility is because you don't know who Seguin might have played with or who he'd have fit in with. Crabb only played on the top line because Kessel didn't fit in well with Grabo(and it's an exageration to just say that Kessel played with him. Crabb only played 48 games in the league and not all of them were on Kessel's line. Kessel played with Crabb for about 1/3 of the season). If Seguin had been on the Leafs he might have had better linemates than in Boston, he might have had worse. There's not a lot of point in speculating on it.

There's not really a whole lot of point in speculating what the Leafs might of been had they kept the picks either, but it happens every day.

 

[Kin]

It's just an example. Not matter of fact. I'm illustrating that speculation works both ways.

Sure. In that sense any sort of "What if?" scenario is utterly pointless. You can't say with any certainty that if Crosby had been drafted by the Leafs he wouldn't have blown out his knee. If we are going to engage in that sort of speculation, I think it's fair to say a player's ability is relatively a constant. A lot of good young players have developed just fine playing on bad teams with lousy teammates.

A not-quite-as-good player as Phil Kessel? I deal with that just fine.

A comparable player who's 4 years younger, better defensively and cheaper.

 

[TML fan]

It's just an example. Not matter of fact. I'm illustrating that speculation works both ways.

Sure. In that sense any sort of "What if?" scenario is utterly pointless. You can't say with any certainty that if Crosby had been drafted by the Leafs he wouldn't have blown out his knee. If we are going to engage in that sort of speculation, I think it's fair to say a player's ability is relatively a constant. A lot of good young players have developed just fine playing on bad teams with lousy teammates.

A not-quite-as-good player as Phil Kessel? I deal with that just fine.

A comparable player who's 4 years younger, better defensively and cheaper.

A lot of them have faltered too.

I'm fine with the way I worded it.

 

[freer]

You can list failed teams all you want, that still doesn't answer for Burke's mistakes.  He came here preaching a faster than 5 year re-build.  It's year 5 coming up and he's been full of hot air so far.

Fwiw, I don't think you heard a whole lot of that after year one and he has kept picks while trading to acquire them too since the Kessel deal. Has he said the word 'rebuild'? No, but it's going that way more than not now.

He'll never admit trading for Kessel was a mistake.

Why would he have to admit that Trading for Kessel was a mistake.  Kessel has 201 pts in 234 games with TO.  He clearly could of hit 90-95 pts if Lupul would of stayed healthy. Seguin has 89 pts in 155 games. The points per game percentage goes to Kessel. Seguin looks better on Boston because the team in a whole is better then TO. We get a proper center, and clean up defense and no one will remember this trade.

 

[Kin]

There's not really a whole lot of point in speculating what the Leafs might of been had they kept the picks either, but it happens every day.

If we're going to be especially meta about this there's not a whole lot of point in being a hockey fan but it doesn't stop us. Speculating about how various players might play in different markets is a pretty legitimate exercise even without worrying about the universe of variables that might turn Sidney Crosby into a 4th liner.

 

[TML fan]

There's not really a whole lot of point in speculating what the Leafs might of been had they kept the picks either, but it happens every day.

Speculating about how various players might play in different markets is a pretty legitimate exercise

I know. That's what I've been doing.

 

[Jalili]

You're looking at Seguin NOW, what he's doing in a completely different organization in a completely different stage of competitiveness, surrounded tons of support and not being leaned on to be carry any kind of load, on or off the ice, and assuming that he'd develop exactly the same way under completely different circumstances. I just don't think that's realistic. Like any regular person, players are a product of their environment.

For all we know, Seguin would come to Toronto, not even MAKE the roster in his draft year and take 3 years longer to develop to the level he is now, under heavy if not overwhelming scrutiny. By the time Seguin even saw his 1st NHL game he'd be around Kessel's age now with no experience under his belt, and no guarantee he'd turn into half the player he is now. Seguin is a really good player, but I don't think he's exceptional.

I think a prospect like Kadri, or whoever the Leafs draft this year, has a much better chance of success when the expectations are much lower, IE: being surrounded by other players who can carry more of the burden and have the expectations put on them. Any high pick is going to have heightened expectations on a team like the Leafs, but if you shield those players with other players who can take some of that burden away (Like Phil Kessel, who is expected to carry the offensive load for this team) I think your prospects have a much higher chance for success.

This is also why, IMO, Pittsburgh is the exception and not the rule.

I disagree with that mainly because Seguin was touted in his draft year, before the Bruins organization had any hand in his development, as being a can't miss star pick. He is who he is today mainly because he's an exceptional talent, not because the Bruins organization have turned him into something that he wasn't already projected to be as a 17 year old in his draft year.

I could understand that reasoning better if the Bruins had been handed a good but not great prospect and turned him into a star... but it's not as if Seguin has greatly exceeded expectations that people weren't expecting of him.

Lots of players are touted. David Legwand was touted. Patrik Stefan was touted. Alexandre Daigle was touted. They wouldn't have been picked where they were if they weren't touted as can't miss stars.

By exceptional, I'm talking Malkin and Crosby levels. Examples of players who I don't think would have failed under any circumstances. I don't think Seguin would have flunked right out of the league but I don't think he would have developed as rapidly as he has in Boston if he was in Toronto. I believe playing in Boston helped him reach this level sooner than he would have under less than ideal circumstances.

Can't miss stars can miss, for any number of reasons. I believe environment plays a factor, like it does in the development of pretty much everything.

Well here is an example I was thinking of. We can look at how it affected Kessel going from 1st place Boston playing with Savard and Lucic to 29th place Toronto with Stajan and Ponikarovsky/Bozak and Kulemin. He went from 36 goals and 60 points to 30 goals and 55 points. Not a significant difference at all.

Although he played on an inferior team with much worse linemates, the trade-off is that he got signficantly more ice time and more free reign to focus on offense. The defensive expectations for forwards on Boston are, obviously, much greater than what they were under Ron Wilson in Toronto.

Just because the conditions are different doesn't mean that the situation in Boston has been as favourable for Seguin as you're portraying them to be, or that the conditions in Toronto would have such an adverse effect on him that it would take 3 years to crack the Leafs lineup. If he goes to Toronto instead of Boston, he is still the highly skilled player that he is today. The only certainty I can see is that his two-way play and physicality would be less developed playing in Toronto for obvious reasons.

 

[Kin]

I know I'm wrong.

Hey, I can play that game too.

 

[TML fan]

You're looking at Seguin NOW, what he's doing in a completely different organization in a completely different stage of competitiveness, surrounded tons of support and not being leaned on to be carry any kind of load, on or off the ice, and assuming that he'd develop exactly the same way under completely different circumstances. I just don't think that's realistic. Like any regular person, players are a product of their environment.

For all we know, Seguin would come to Toronto, not even MAKE the roster in his draft year and take 3 years longer to develop to the level he is now, under heavy if not overwhelming scrutiny. By the time Seguin even saw his 1st NHL game he'd be around Kessel's age now with no experience under his belt, and no guarantee he'd turn into half the player he is now. Seguin is a really good player, but I don't think he's exceptional.

I think a prospect like Kadri, or whoever the Leafs draft this year, has a much better chance of success when the expectations are much lower, IE: being surrounded by other players who can carry more of the burden and have the expectations put on them. Any high pick is going to have heightened expectations on a team like the Leafs, but if you shield those players with other players who can take some of that burden away (Like Phil Kessel, who is expected to carry the offensive load for this team) I think your prospects have a much higher chance for success.

This is also why, IMO, Pittsburgh is the exception and not the rule.

I disagree with that mainly because Seguin was touted in his draft year, before the Bruins organization had any hand in his development, as being a can't miss star pick. He is who he is today mainly because he's an exceptional talent, not because the Bruins organization have turned him into something that he wasn't already projected to be as a 17 year old in his draft year.

I could understand that reasoning better if the Bruins had been handed a good but not great prospect and turned him into a star... but it's not as if Seguin has greatly exceeded expectations that people weren't expecting of him.

Lots of players are touted. David Legwand was touted. Patrik Stefan was touted. Alexandre Daigle was touted. They wouldn't have been picked where they were if they weren't touted as can't miss stars.

By exceptional, I'm talking Malkin and Crosby levels. Examples of players who I don't think would have failed under any circumstances. I don't think Seguin would have flunked right out of the league but I don't think he would have developed as rapidly as he has in Boston if he was in Toronto. I believe playing in Boston helped him reach this level sooner than he would have under less than ideal circumstances.

Can't miss stars can miss, for any number of reasons. I believe environment plays a factor, like it does in the development of pretty much everything.

Well here is an example I was thinking of. We can look at how it affected Kessel going from 1st place Boston playing with Savard and Lucic to 29th place Toronto with Stajan and Ponikarovsky/Bozak and Kulemin. He went from 36 goals and 60 points to 30 goals and 55 points. Not a significant difference at all.

Although he played on an inferior team with much worse linemates, the trade-off is that he got signficantly more ice time and more free reign to focus on offense. The defensive expectations for forwards on Boston are, obviously, much greater than what they were under Ron Wilson in Toronto.

Just because the conditions are different doesn't mean that the situation in Boston has been as favourable for Seguin as you're portraying them to be, or that the conditions in Toronto would have such an adverse effect on him that it would take 3 years to crack the Leafs lineup. If he goes to Toronto instead of Boston, he is still the highly skilled player that he is today. The only certainty I can see is that his two-way play and physicality would be less developed playing in Toronto for obvious reasons.

I didn't mean to say that he wouldn't crack the lineup for 3 years. I meant that his development could have been slowed by up to 3 years. I'm not dealing in certainties. As I said I'm just trying to illustrate difficulties that Seguin may have faced in Toronto that he didn't in Boston. Yes, he would still be the same highly skilled player, but with a lot more individual pressure and expectations. Boston didn't NEED Seguin to be this good this soon. Just look at the treatment Luke Schenn gets, and it's generally accepted that defencemen take longer to develop than forwards.

 

[Tigger]

You can list failed teams all you want, that still doesn't answer for Burke's mistakes.  He came here preaching a faster than 5 year re-build.  It's year 5 coming up and he's been full of hot air so far.

Fwiw, I don't think you heard a whole lot of that after year one and he has kept picks while trading to acquire them too since the Kessel deal. Has he said the word 'rebuild'? No, but it's going that way more than not now.

He'll never admit trading for Kessel was a mistake.

Why would he have to admit that Trading for Kessel was a mistake.  Kessel has 201 pts in 234 games with TO.  He clearly could of hit 90-95 pts if Lupul would of stayed healthy. Seguin has 89 pts in 155 games. The points per game percentage goes to Kessel. Seguin looks better on Boston because the team in a whole is better then TO. We get a proper center, and clean up defense and no one will remember this trade.

I'm fairly aware of Kessels performance and not trying to make it out to be a pejorative but in that post the reference is to a rebuild and mistakes, trading two firsts was a mistake in terms of a traditional rebuild and the quality of the roster at the time.

I like Kessel, not that I've come around to change my opinion based on a rebuild philosophy but he's a special player and a high value asset. I can see both sides.

 

[TML fan]

I know I'm wrong.

Hey, I can play that game too.

The difference is, you actually said those words. I didn't just change them in a childish display of desperation to win an argument, which at the end of the day is really all you care about. Thanks for the discussion. I'll just go back to ignoring everything you say.

 

[Kin]

The difference is, you actually said those words.

You cut off a sentence half-way through to indicate I had said something 180 degrees away from what I said. Don't try to pretend there's any substantive difference. My post wasn't to score points in an argument, it was to illustrate how cowardly it is to try and "score points" by doing what you did. Grow up.