Useless Thread
- Thread starter Leafaholic99
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Kin
New member
Meanwhile, in the UK, they can't even agree to when to have the vote on the deal nobody likes about the best way to enact a policy the government doesn't want because it wouldn't have the support of the opposition parties who maybe secretly do want that policy but say they can't support it because they'd do a better job of negotiating for a policy they either do or don't want:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/brexit-deal-may-admits-she-would-have-lost-vote-by-large-margin
So, you know, things are great.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/brexit-deal-may-admits-she-would-have-lost-vote-by-large-margin
So, you know, things are great.
Arn
Well-known member
Nik the Trik said:
I just heard a great quote on breakfast news
"All Theresa May has done is get us a deal worse than remaining!"
Well, no shit....
The whole thing is an utter pantomime at this stage. And it's quite amusing to see Ireland finally getting the upper hand and playing it verrrry subtly on the UK after hundreds of years
Kin
New member
Arn said:
Yeah, when I saw that thing about the Tory minister saying they could threaten the Irish with food shortages I really couldn't believe it. Ireland being accomodating is the only chance they have at a deal and they're going out of their way to sound like idiots about it.
It's like watching three people in a house argue about the best way to burn the house down with all of them still inside.
Arn
Well-known member
And now the faction within the Conservative Party that aren't so keen on being in the EU have decided that the best thing to do, having demanded that their Prime Minister go back and try to change the terms of the deal, which she has done, is launch a vote of no confidence and leadership challenge.
So she has had to cancel her meeting with.... the Irish PM who would be the main person she needs to convince to change the deal.
So she has had to cancel her meeting with.... the Irish PM who would be the main person she needs to convince to change the deal.
Arn
Well-known member
And in the latest Brexit update, the House of Commons gave the sitting UK government its biggest defeat in history with a 432 votes to 202 loss voting against approving the plan 2 years of negotiations with the EU has developed.
That included 118 members of the Conservative Party voting against their own government.
Now we have a vote of no confidence in the government tonight (they should see that off with their slim majority). That leaves 2 days for the government to come back with "Plan B" to replace the defeated plan that took 2 years to agree and clearly wasn't acceptable to pretty much anyone who wanted to remain or leave the EU
That included 118 members of the Conservative Party voting against their own government.
Now we have a vote of no confidence in the government tonight (they should see that off with their slim majority). That leaves 2 days for the government to come back with "Plan B" to replace the defeated plan that took 2 years to agree and clearly wasn't acceptable to pretty much anyone who wanted to remain or leave the EU
TimKerr
New member
Arn said:
So I am not an international policy analyst but I do follow this stuff superficially in the news. But what happens now? Brexit is planned for end of March but there are no policies or procedures in place? So Britain will leave the EU and then what? Chaos? Anarchy? Why did the govt vote against this plan in the first place?
Arn
Well-known member
TimKerr said:
It's pretty complicated... But, I'll try a basic short version.
The referendum was framed far too simply. Remain in the EU or Leave the EU. 52% of those who voted said to Leave.
The problem is within that 52% some of them took leave to mean a complete and utter clean break. Some took it to mean the political institutions but maintaining some ties such as the customs union allowing for the existing internal trade rules to stay in place.
One issue that came up was that there is a land border within the island of Ireland that is currently entirely open. Tens of thousands of people cross it every day. Freight lorries come into Dublin port in Ireland, drives over the border into Northern Ireland and hops on a ferry to Scotland.
If the UK took the clean break option then that border would have to be tightened for customs and quality checks, along with passport checks to prevent people getting into the UK (from say the eastern EU countries) illegally simply by following that route via Dublin ports.
Such a border on the island of Ireland would more than likely reignite the conflict that ran from the 1960s til the late 1990s for reasons I can further expand upon if you desire.
So the deal included a "backstop" which effectively agreed that the UK would "leave" the EU, but its rules would mirror those of the EU for customs etc. That didn't suit those who wanted the "clean break" from the EU so they voted against it.
Another part of this was having Northern Ireland remain aligned to EU rules and have those border checks done within ports around the Irish Sea. This effectively would have created a de facto united Ireland and could be seen as the beginning of the break up of the UK. Also it wasn't acceptable to Scotland as why should NI get special status and Scotland couldn't, thus leading to a push for another Scottish Independence referendum. So a pile of people were against the deal for that reason.
TLDR; the deal was the only deal possible to negotiate based on the red lines set down, mostly by Theresa May and her Tory government but also to an extent by the EU. However the deal couldn't possibly make all the different factions with different ideas of what Brexit actually is happy as for some it didn't go far enough, for others it went too far. Then there were a few in the middle who recognised it as the only deal that could be put through that didn't lead to the utter chaos of a "no deal" exit.
Arn
Well-known member
As for what happens next... all bets are off. But I feel it is likely that either a new referendum will be held asking whether to leave on the deal or remain in the EU or else parliament will seize control and vote through amendments to completely revoke the article 50 intention to leave all together.
The UK is due to leave the EU on 29th March, and if no deal is in place by then it will leave with no deal which leads to all sorts of issues such as availability of foods and medicines and more, But I think the EU would allow an extension to that deadline if a referendum were organised.
The UK is due to leave the EU on 29th March, and if no deal is in place by then it will leave with no deal which leads to all sorts of issues such as availability of foods and medicines and more, But I think the EU would allow an extension to that deadline if a referendum were organised.
Arn
Well-known member
Parliament CAN override a referendum - a referendum isn't binding, it's only advisory. But 2 years ago the Conservative party said they would fulfil the wishes of the referendum so they would be unlikely to do that as it would likely cost them votes in future general elections.
That's why a new referendum might be called - a different result would get them out of that particular mess.
There is some push for a new referendum but in all honesty I think the appetite is more along the lines of most people are sick of it and "just get Brexit done now". It's dragged on for 2 years and there are multiple other issues that have been ignored because of it.
That's why a new referendum might be called - a different result would get them out of that particular mess.
There is some push for a new referendum but in all honesty I think the appetite is more along the lines of most people are sick of it and "just get Brexit done now". It's dragged on for 2 years and there are multiple other issues that have been ignored because of it.
Kin
New member
Arn said:
The thing that strikes me as really crazy, not that the whole thing isn't crazy, is that the far-right wing of the Tory party and how they're playing it. They led a no-confidence vote against Theresa May in December and voted against the Brexit deal but then supported her unanimously in today's vote of no-confidence in the Government. Because May has already said she won't be leading the Tories into a new election, voting against her today would have been the far-right's chance to get one of their own Hard Brexit types as Prime Minister.
Of course, the problem there is that I think they know that if they go into a General Election actually campaigning on No-Deal Brexit and with someone like Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg as Leader they'd probably lose the election. So rather than risk that, they backed May today.
But I don't really see where that gets them. May is almost certainly going to try to make an appeal to Labour to get them behind a renegotiated deal rather than give the hard-right what they want so by not getting rid of May, they'll probably get a softer Brexit than the one they just voted against.
Arn
Well-known member
Yup. This whole thing is pretty much an internal Conservative party dispute being played out. The original referendum was a policy by Cameron to placate those far right wing in the party and prevent them losing ground to the UK Independence Party.
Cameron never expected to lose. But a combination of their own austerity policies and apparent external meddling in the vote leave campaigning (sound familiar to any other big recent Western democracy election of a similar time?) led to an unexpected result.
And then of course May has been trying to play to the right of the party by promising this clean break of leaving the customs Union and free market. Which of course doesn't fit with the EU border in Ireland.
I see she has tonight asked for leaders of other parties to build a cross party working group type response so we'll see what happens next... Cos honestly it could be anything.
Cameron never expected to lose. But a combination of their own austerity policies and apparent external meddling in the vote leave campaigning (sound familiar to any other big recent Western democracy election of a similar time?) led to an unexpected result.
And then of course May has been trying to play to the right of the party by promising this clean break of leaving the customs Union and free market. Which of course doesn't fit with the EU border in Ireland.
I see she has tonight asked for leaders of other parties to build a cross party working group type response so we'll see what happens next... Cos honestly it could be anything.
louisstamos
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
I recognize Keele & Bloor when I see it!
hockeyfan1
New member
*Gulp* 72 lb. Cheese wheel (No kidding!)
There's more:
An approximately 8 ft. teddy bear (Aww)
...and...Mamma mia! A nearly 7 lb. tub of Nutella
All this craziness here:
https://amp.businessinsider.com/costco-sells-big-nutella-bear-mac-and-cheese-2019-2
There's more:
An approximately 8 ft. teddy bear (Aww)
...and...Mamma mia! A nearly 7 lb. tub of Nutella
All this craziness here:
https://amp.businessinsider.com/costco-sells-big-nutella-bear-mac-and-cheese-2019-2