2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[Bates]

The NHL doesn't just get to decide unilaterally when to hold games. Arenas have other commitments and pretty frequently, the hockey teams aren't the primary tenants.

But they do get to have the arenas availability before doing schedule. It really should not be that hard to avoid players being exposed to unfavorable situations like the home team flying back to play next day while their opponent is having a days rest. Or they could just go way outside the box and do schedule year before so they pick dates and other events would have to work around them rather than being last pick. Basically there just has to be a better way.

 

[Kin]

Or they could just go way outside the box and do schedule year before so they pick dates and other events would have to work around them rather than being last pick.

That doesn't make any sense. No matter how much the NHL might want to make arenas schedule around them to the exclusion of their other tenants the arenas won't. Do it as far in advance as you want, arenas will still want to bring big concerts to town and let basketball teams have desirable dates and won't let hockey teams just choose their own dates without consideration of anything else.

Some of these arenas do 200-250 nights per year and each team's schedule has to work with every other team's schedule and they have to work things out with other tenants. The NHL is not the big gorilla in the room.

 

[Bates]

Or they could just go way outside the box and do schedule year before so they pick dates and other events would have to work around them rather than being last pick.

That doesn't make any sense. No matter how much the NHL might want to make arenas schedule around them to the exclusion of their other tenants the arenas won't. Do it as far in advance as you want, arenas will still want to bring big concerts to town and let basketball teams have desirable dates and won't let hockey teams just choose their own dates without consideration of anything else.

Some of these arenas do 200-250 nights per year and each team's schedule has to work with every other team's schedule and they have to work things out with other tenants. The NHL is not the big gorilla in the room.

I think there are presently 11 teams sharing arenas, should not be that hard to work around them.

 

[Kin]

I think there are presently 11 teams sharing arenas, should not be that hard to work around them.

Well, first of all, you're only counting teams that share their arena with NBA teams there. There are lots of examples of arenas having other significant tenants(The Hurricanes, for instance, have to deal with NC State basketball) but even then how do you just "work around" a third of the entire league?

Every team's scheduling needs have to be accounted for when making things work for everyone and even the buildings without other significant tenants have to account for other uses of the venue, especially if the teams don't own their arena. I guarantee you a lot of Arenas would rather schedule a Drake or Bruce Springsteen concert than a Panthers-Sabres game.

 

[Bates]

I think there are presently 11 teams sharing arenas, should not be that hard to work around them.

Well, first of all, you're only counting teams that share their arena with NBA teams there. There are lots of examples of arenas having other significant tenants(The Hurricanes, for instance, have to deal with NC State basketball) but even then how do you just "work around" a third of the entire league?

Every team's scheduling needs have to be accounted for when making things work for everyone and even the buildings without other significant tenants have to account for other uses of the venue, especially if the teams don't own their arena. I guarantee you a lot of Arenas would rather schedule a Drake or Bruce Springsteen concert than a Panthers-Sabres game.

You can write it whatever way you want, I'm very confident in saying the NHL can do better than the crappy schedule I read about for the Blackhawks this year. I'm also fairly confident that an NHL game brings in more revenue for teams than a concert does.

 

[Kin]

I'm also fairly confident that an NHL game brings in more revenue for teams than a concert does.

While I'm always impressed with your ability to be confident in yourself despite absolutely no facts supporting your arguments or even a working grasp of basic concepts even the tiniest cursory research would show how ridiculous this is. The highest priced Hurricanes tickets, for instance, are about 150 bucks. The cheapest Metallica tickets, at the same arena, are about 130.

 

[Bates]

I'm also fairly confident that an NHL game brings in more revenue for teams than a concert does.

While I'm always impressed with your ability to be confident in yourself despite absolutely no facts supporting your arguments or even a working grasp of basic concepts even the tiniest cursory research would show how ridiculous this is. The highest priced Hurricanes tickets, for instance, are about 150 bucks. The cheapest Metallica tickets, at the same arena, are about 130.

You seem to be forgetting that Mettalica is taking most of that money while the team is pretty much taking all of the hockey ticket money. Or I guess 50% of hockey ticket money.

 

[Kin]

You seem to be forgetting that Mettalica is taking most of that money while the team is pretty much taking all of the hockey ticket money. Or I guess 50% of hockey ticket money.

Why would the arena care who was taking the money from ticket sales? The arena just wants to have people in the building.

 

[herman]

Doesn?t a concert also cram more bodies into the building than a hockey game just by virtue of the layout of the event? Stages are usually smaller than hockey rinks.

The ?ice? level seats are usually the most expensive ones too. So a concert is not only adding more bodies, but the priciest bodies in the hundreds.

 

[Kin]

Doesn?t a concert also cram more bodies into the building than a hockey game just by virtue of the layout of the event? Stages are usually smaller than hockey rinks.

Sure but in a case where the team doesn't own the arena, such as in Carolina, the number of people coming through the doors isn't going to matter much to the arena because the arena probably charges concerts a flat fee to the event producers for the use of the building. They don't usually skim off ticket prices. 

The venue may make more money on parking if they own adjacent lots or something(and, depending on the arrangement with the concert promoters, cost them more in utilities) but most venues just want as many booked nights as possible. That's why they're not going to give any tenant carte blanche to just decide on their own schedule without regard for their ability to book other nights.

 

[herman]

Sure but in a case where the team doesn't own the arena, such as in Carolina, the number of people coming through the doors isn't going to matter much to the arena because the arena probably charges concerts a flat fee to the event producers for the use of the building. They don't usually skim off ticket prices. 

The venue may make more money on parking if they own adjacent lots or something(and, depending on the arrangement with the concert promoters, cost them more in utilities) but most venues just want as many booked nights as possible. That's why they're not going to give any tenant carte blanche to just decide on their own schedule without regard for their ability to book other nights.

Ah, so while the ticket sales themselves are not directly going to the arena, having more bodies interacting with the arena would Corsi up their chances at concession and parking profits.

 

[Kin]

Ah, so while the ticket sales themselves are not directly going to the arena, having more bodies interacting with the arena would Corsi up their chances at concession and parking profits.

Well, maybe. I'm by no means an expert but I actually think for the most part concessions revenue would go to whoever was running the event(I'm pretty sure concessions revenue for hockey games go to teams and is counted as HRR) and I know that a lot of musical acts are big enough to actually demand slices of concession revenues during their shows.

Where an Arena makes their real money is simply by booking their space. They charge a Concert Promoter X amount of dollars as a one off for a show or a tenant a certain amount of rent for a number of dates for a year.

Where I think their preference comes into play is that they'd rather sell a Friday or Saturday Night to promoters than, say, a Tuesday. That said, they also want happy and profitable tenants. So while they're inclined to give, say, the Hurricanes a certain amount of premium spots, they're not going to let the Hurricanes simply unilaterally decide on their own schedule at the expense of, say, NC State basketball or a Metallica show because in all of those events, the Arena Management just wants to book dates.

Like I said, it's actually a pretty complicated balancing act and when you multiply it by 31 teams all of whom have their own complicated relationships with their arenas and various tenants the idea that schedule making "must" be a simpler process that can be worked out better for NHL teams is pretty ridiculous. Especially considering in most cases of building sharing the NHL team will be the lower revenue team(including, say, in Toronto)

 

[herman]

Kudos for making me even remotely interested in venue revenue and scheduling minutiae, Nik.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-artists-and-venues-make-money-from-concerts

 

[Kin]

Kudos for making me even remotely interested in venue revenue and scheduling minutiae, Nik.

Yeah, I forget where I heard the story but I remember hearing about some big arena act(Jimmy Buffet maybe?) getting so big that they were able to demand a big chunk of concession revenues at which point they started having actual "go get a beer" breaks worked into their concerts.

Anyways, there's a reason someone like Philip Anschutz became the NHL's richest owner on the back of arena/event management. It's a huge and complicated business.

 

[herman]

Kudos for making me even remotely interested in venue revenue and scheduling minutiae, Nik.

Yeah, I forget where I heard the story but I remember hearing about some big arena act(Jimmy Buffet maybe?) getting so big that they were able to demand a big chunk of concession revenues at which point they started having actual "go get a beer" breaks worked into their concerts.

Anyways, there's a reason someone like Philip Anschutz became the NHL's richest owner on the back of arena/event management. It's a huge and complicated business.

Alcohol propping up the lower and middle class of live music (and general venue usage) is an intriguing economy (and depressing feedback loop). The legalization of recreational cannibis in many jurisdictions is also going to add a new wrinkle at concession stands.

 

[Bates]

Doesn?t a concert also cram more bodies into the building than a hockey game just by virtue of the layout of the event? Stages are usually smaller than hockey rinks.

The ?ice? level seats are usually the most expensive ones too. So a concert is not only adding more bodies, but the priciest bodies in the hundreds.

In most arenas it usually ends up fairly equal as the seats beside and behind stage aren't used, there are exceptions.  And many teams these days have negotiated control of the arena so it is the team making money on concerts and concessions.

 

[Kin]

The legalization of recreational cannibis in many jurisdictions is also going to add a new wrinkle at concession stands.

I was just thinking Leafs fans needed to be slightly more paranoid.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/OfficialGrabo/status/1089651609620094983

Would Grabo be better than Lindholm?

 

[Zee]

https://twitter.com/OfficialGrabo/status/1089651609620094983

Would Grabo be better than Lindholm?

I like that he identifies as a Leaf on his twitter page.  No grudges held.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I like that he identifies as a Leaf on his twitter page.  No grudges held.

Probably doesn't hurt that he's still getting paid $1.79mil a year for another 2 seasons after this one.