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2024 Blue Jays

Well, barring a double digit winning streak, the Jays are certainly destined to be sellers at the deadline, and some people are likely to be relieved of their duties.
 
bustaheims said:
Well, barring a double digit winning streak, the Jays are certainly destined to be sellers at the deadline, and some people are likely to be relieved of their duties.
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I really think it has to be the end of the line for Shapiro and Atkins.  I don't know if anyone trusts them on the sale of assets, and I also don't think anyone trusts them to handle another rebuild.  I think the only variable here might be time for Rogers to find a suitable replacement.
 
Frank E said:
I really think it has to be the end of the line for Shapiro and Atkins.  I don't know if anyone trusts them on the sale of assets, and I also don't think anyone trusts them to handle another rebuild.  I think the only variable here might be time for Rogers to find a suitable replacement.
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I do and I don't. Building up the system and identifying quality young players was one of their strengths in Cleveland and they did a pretty solid job of that here - not perfect, obviously, but admirable. The issue they have is taking from rebuild to contender. I agree, they have to go. They've had more than enough opportunities to get it done, and they've just made it worse, but, if they're still around of the sell off portion of things, it might not be the end of the world. They need to go in the offseason, for sure, as well as Schneider and the majority of the coaching staff.
 
It's almost comical now.

?The last two innings there, unfortunately, led to the outcome of the loss, but I think the first seven (innings), you did some really good things,? Schneider said, searching for positives for his team.
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Arn said:
It's almost comical now.

?The last two innings there, unfortunately, led to the outcome of the loss, but I think the first seven (innings), you did some really good things,? Schneider said, searching for positives for his team.
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Enjoy your summer and don't watch. We got UFA and Marner to keep us entertained. Soccer tonight too.
 
Arn said:
It's almost comical now.

?The last two innings there, unfortunately, led to the outcome of the loss, but I think the first seven (innings), you did some really good things,? Schneider said, searching for positives for his team.
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At least they're finding a variety of ways to lose . . .
 
Putting aside the expansion years, has there ever been a player less deserving to be in the majors than Kirk?

Maybe there was but just none come to mind. And I?m not talking about call ups here and there who got a cup of coffee. This guy has been on the mlb roster for 3 seasons now. I just can?t think of another jays player who got this much of an extended stay who has no business being in the MLB.
 
It?s even worse when you think what they traded away to let him stay.

It?s also nice of Vlad to finally go on a hot streak. Not sure if that makes me want to sign him long term or just better value for a trade.
 
Arn said:
It?s even worse when you think what they traded away to let him stay.
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Kirk had insane MILB numbers and then 2 smoking years in the MLB before the gong show that is this current season. Even last year, which wasn't a particularly good season for Kirk, saw him worth nearly 2 WAR; hardly the numbers of "one of the least deserving MLBers ever." And Moreno this year (who is only a year younger than Kirk, btw) has a 0.9 WAR compared to Kirk's 0.2, with about 45% more at bats.

Varsho + Kirk = 2.6 WAR
Moreno + Gurriel = 1.9 WAR

And Gurriel was an FA prior to this season, so he really doesn't count in this current equation.

It's funny, there are certainly some legitimate concerns and criticisms pertaining to the current management regime (Drafting, particularly in the 1st round, development, coaching, identifying high-end talent) but it seems as though the majority of the vitriol (at least what from I have encountered) is either completely misguided or misinformed.

 
Look - I?m not an advanced stats guy, but even when Kirk?s numbers were good, you could tell it was a mirage.

And putting that aside, he?s just an absolute black hole on the bases.

I don?t know if I?ve ever hated a blue jays player as much as I hate Kirk. And I think they did shop him around and none of the other GMs were fooled by his smoke show. I guess he can frame the hell out of a pitch. That?s an exciting skill.
 
Joe said:
Look - I?m not an advanced stats guy, but even when Kirk?s numbers were good, you could tell it was a mirage.

And putting that aside, he?s just an absolute black hole on the bases.

I don?t know if I?ve ever hated a blue jays player as much as I hate Kirk. And I think they did shop him around and none of the other GMs were fooled by his smoke show. I guess he can frame the hell out of a pitch. That?s an exciting skill.
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Here are Kirk's entire ("non-advanced") minor league stats: 567AB 19HR 114RBI 94BB 69SO.318AVG .416OBP .919 OPS
And that's all by the time he reached 22 years old.

OPS stats in the MLB with Toronto, prior to his year: .764, .786, .692

None of those numbers has anything to do with framing or defense, which he excels at.

Again, I'm not sure where this idea that he is so worthless and was a complete smoke and mirrors show comes from.
 
Please don?t take this as if I?m trying to argue with you, from an objective perspective I?m sure your logic is sound. Unfortunately I have no objectivity when it comes to Kirk.

As a jays fan, I can?t stand him and I would be shocked to see him getting any kind of significant time or a roster spot on any other mlb team. And I?m sure the sad state of the current team is doing nothing to help my opinion.
 
Joe said:
Please don?t take this as if I?m trying to argue with you, from an objective perspective I?m sure your logic is sound. Unfortunately I have no objectivity when it comes to Kirk.

As a jays fan, I can?t stand him and I would be shocked to see him getting any kind of significant time or a roster spot on any other mlb team. And I?m sure the sad state of the current team is doing nothing to help my opinion.
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You know it`s funny, I really can`t stand him too.. He was the first guy I wanted moved after his big season 2 years ago. I thought his fitness level was a real concern; he clogs the bases and can`t score from 2nd on singles, is a double play machine and, if robot umpires happened soon, that his defensive value would be gone. It certainly hasn`t helped that he seems to have gotten quite a bit further out of shape and is playing the hardest position from a physical standpoint. I just didn`t understand the hyperbole because he really did have potential and value...Either way...he looks horrid right now.
 
Ha.  Two years ago Kirk was seen as an untouchable and a player fans would not want traded even for some of the better talents in the league.

I never understood the fascination with him at all though.  He's short, portly, slow, his bat isn't that great.  While his defence is pretty solid, it's not standout-ish where keeping him for that alone is a plus.

I don't hate the guy.  Certainly don't care for him either.  He surely isn't the guy if the team was in the mix to compete.  Heck, he's not even the guy now. 

He alone is just a part of the big problem that the team is right now.  The whole organization needs a reset.
 
Kiermaier on waivers.  Obviously had no trade value, but I'd think some team might grab him for his defense...maybe?
 
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