Opening Forward Lines

[CarltonTheBear]

Just saying

Those were just with Kessel. JVR was involved in a few Kessel wasn't.

 

[bustaheims]

Just saying

A) Those are just plays where Kessel earned a point. Not whether or not he was on the ice or if JvR earned a point. B) I actually did the research for it. I actually did miscount. Bozak only has 7 points on goals where neither JvR or Kessel earned a point, so, in actual fact, he has 1 point at ES or on the PP without either of them and a goalie in the other team's net and 5 in total.

 

[2badknees]

Bozak - 20th in the league in points. Great faceoff percentage. 
Kadri - 179th in points. Over 50 minutes on the PP. 0 PP points.

Obviously Kadri should be on the top line, for the sole reason that his wingers are substandard.

Mirtle take was funny to me: saying essentially that the "failures of the second power play unit have really impacted his totals".  - as if he isn't part of those failures, what with being the centreman and all.

I wouldn't want to trade the guy, but I hope coaching and team management are pushing him to raise his game rather than give excuses as to why it isn't there.

 

[Strangelove]

Bozak - 20th in the league in points. Great faceoff percentage. 
Kadri - 179th in points. Over 50 minutes on the PP. 0 PP points.

Obviously Kadri should be on the top line.

Astute analysis. You're really digging deep here.

 

[2badknees]

Bozak - 20th in the league in points. Great faceoff percentage. 
Kadri - 179th in points. Over 50 minutes on the PP. 0 PP points.

Obviously Kadri should be on the top line.

Astute analysis. You're really digging deep here.

That's exactly the problem. People here are digging too deep. Good players make it happen.

 

[Strangelove]

Bozak - 20th in the league in points. Great faceoff percentage. 
Kadri - 179th in points. Over 50 minutes on the PP. 0 PP points.

Obviously Kadri should be on the top line.

Astute analysis. You're really digging deep here.

That's exactly the problem. People here are digging too deep. Good players make it happen.

By giving it 110%?

 

[Tigger]

I wouldn't want to trade the guy, but I hope coaching and team management are pushing him to raise his game rather than give excuses as to why it isn't there.

It's obvious to me he raised his 200 foot game so far this year, that's more of a concern than point production with a player like him generally, never mind while playing with wingers who don't have his skill level ( to be polite ). If he keeps developing like this he's going to be really, really good.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Bozak - 20th in the league in points. Great faceoff percentage. 
Kadri - 179th in points. Over 50 minutes on the PP. 0 PP points.

Obviously Kadri should be on the top line.

Astute analysis. You're really digging deep here.

That's exactly the problem. People here are digging too deep. Good players make it happen.

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

 

[bustaheims]

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

Also, context matters. Simply looking at raw totals without looking at how they produced those totals, who they were playing with, etc. provides very little insight. The 'how' and 'why' are just as -  if not more - important as the 'what.'

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I actually had no idea that Clarkson wasn't drafted.

You will now always think about it when you watch him play.

 

[TML fan]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

Also, context matters. Simply looking at raw totals without looking at how they produced those totals, who they were playing with, etc. provides very little insight. The 'how' and 'why' are just as -  if not more - important as the 'what.'

Yep.  I think Bozak's performed very well and has exceeded expectations.  But I think Kadri gets an unfair shake and that Bozak would not perform as well as he has if Bozak was given the same linemates & ice-time.

And I think we've said a number of times it's understood that the Leafs would want to spread the scoring out, it's more in response to criticism of Kadri that he is inconsistent and could/should be traded.

 

[TML fan]

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

Also, context matters. Simply looking at raw totals without looking at how they produced those totals, who they were playing with, etc. provides very little insight. The 'how' and 'why' are just as -  if not more - important as the 'what.'

Yep.  I think Bozak's performed very well and has exceeded expectations.  But I think Kadri gets an unfair shake and that Bozak would not perform as well as he has if Bozak was given the same linemates & ice-time.

And I think we've said a number of times it's understood that the Leafs would want to spread the scoring out, it's more in response to criticism of Kadri that he is inconsistent and could/should be traded.

Well, the way I see it is if Kadri isn't good enough to elevate the play of his linemates, then he is not good enough to be considered an untouchable.

If his linemates are dragging him down, then he needs new linemates. Where do you get that from though? Kadri is one of the more valuable trade chips the Leafs have. If they need to improve their secondary scoring then Kadri is likely one of the first on the block.

I think the argument is just that. If the Leafs can improve their secondary scoring by trading Kadri, and filling the 2nd line centre role with someone who maybe doesn't score a lot but is better than him on the defensive side of the game, it's definitely worth exploring. The issue right now seems to be that nobody seems to be able to play with him at a high enough level to give the Leafs two legitimate scoring lines.

Bumping Bozak for him doesn't make any sense. You're diminishing the effectiveness of one player to boost the stats of another. At the end of the day the Leafs are still a one line team.

 

[Strangelove]

Not digging deep at all actually.  Kadri's performed very well by almost any metric you want to use.  Looking beyond simply goals and assists should not be 'digging deep' for anyone out of elementary school.

Also, context matters. Simply looking at raw totals without looking at how they produced those totals, who they were playing with, etc. provides very little insight. The 'how' and 'why' are just as -  if not more - important as the 'what.'

Yep.  I think Bozak's performed very well and has exceeded expectations.  But I think Kadri gets an unfair shake and that Bozak would not perform as well as he has if Bozak was given the same linemates & ice-time.

And I think we've said a number of times it's understood that the Leafs would want to spread the scoring out, it's more in response to criticism of Kadri that he is inconsistent and could/should be traded.

Well, the way I see it is if Kadri isn't good enough to elevate the play of his linemates, then he is not good enough to be considered an untouchable.

If his linemates are dragging him down, then he needs new linemates. Where do you get that from though? Kadri is one of the more valuable trade chips the Leafs have. If they need to improve their secondary scoring then Kadri is likely one of the first on the block.

I think the argument is just that. If the Leafs can improve their secondary scoring by trading Kadri, and filling the 2nd line centre role with someone who maybe doesn't score a lot but is better than him on the defensive side of the game, it's definitely worth exploring. The issue right now seems to be that nobody seems to be able to play with him at a high enough level to give the Leafs two legitimate scoring lines.

Bumping Bozak for him doesn't make any sense. You're diminishing the effectiveness of one player to boost the stats of another. At the end of the day the Leafs are still a one line team.

Except the Bozak line doesn't score much 5 on 5--special teams performance masks that issue, but it's there. This is not a team that can afford to trade away one of their only consistent even strength scorers for someone who "maybe doesn't score a lot but is better than [Kadri] on the defensive side of the game." Not to mention the fact that Kadri's ability to maintain control of the puck completely outweighs any perceived defensive deficiencies he has.

The problem isn't Kadri. It's how he's being used.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

Does anyone not think that...?

 

[Kin]

The problem isn't Kadri. It's how he's being used.

Well, yes and no. I agree that the team's got more problems then Kadri and I agree that he's actually played reasonably well. The issue though is that buying into the idea that this team with its core group of players could ever really be competitive meant believing that at some point an additional top flight offensive talent was either going to be acquired through free agency or developed. It's not fair to Kadri to hold him to that standard but at the end of the day that standard still exists for the Leafs. The less and less that it looks like Kadri is going to be that player then the more and more the Leafs have to consider ways of finding that player externally and Kadri, who does have a lot of value, becomes part of that conversation in a way that Bozak really doesn't.

 

[Bullfrog]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

Does anyone not think that...?

It's hard because Bozak has such relatively little time not with Kessel.  At 5 on 5 from 2009-2014 Bozak has 4283:23 at 5 on 5, 3609:14 of which is with Kessel.

When Bozak is on the ice with Kessel the Leafs have a GF20 of .964, a GA20 of .959 for a Goals For % of 50.1%.

Over that same time when Bozak is not on the ice with Kessel, in 674:09, the Leafs have a GF20 of .682, a GA20 of 1.305 for a Goals For % of 34.3%.

Source

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

He's been scoring when being put in a position to score last and this season. As long as it's looking like he'll be scoring at a 65-ish point pace I won't be too upset that he's on the top line. My biggest issue is the perception that he's some sort of defensive rock, which he isn't. No matter how many times someone tells me he plays on the penalty kill. Watch him in our zone at 5-on-5, he's constantly leaving his man open.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Does anyone think that Bozak's numbers would decline significantly if he weren't on the top line?

If he wasn't on the top line and top power play and he had Clarkson as his primary winger? Absolutely.

I think he'd still be doing well though.

He's been scoring when being put in a position to score last and this season. As long as it's looking like he'll be scoring at a 65-ish point pace I won't be too upset that he's on the top line. My biggest issue is the perception that he's some sort of defensive rock, which he isn't. No matter how many times someone tells me he plays on the penalty kill. Watch him in our zone at 5-on-5, he's constantly leaving his man open.

And despite his 2 SH goals (which were obviously great) he's not playing the PK this season other than to take some faceoffs.