2024-25 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Bullfrog]

Losers lose and winners win.

If you want to win, do what winners do. Think like winners think and make decisions like the winners make. Avalanche, Panthers, Lightening, Golden Knights, Capitals all have won.

Leafs have never won after the point when odds to catch the silver and nickle of the Cup got worse than catching lead in Russian Roulette. Anyone can win in a field of six.

Leafs and its fans have a total loser mentality. And this entire discussion reflects that. We care about hurt feelings and hope the situation can eventually get better without taking risky action to effect that change, while winners focus on results and the specific actions to get them there as fast as possible. We apologize for weakness and make excuses for players when the results are not there.... hoping that things will change instead of effecting change.

Any of the teams that won would not do the types of things this Franchise has done over the past 8 years. To allow Marner's NMC to kick in is negligence. To resign him is foolish. To let him go for nothing is even worse. Terrible management. And this is just one example.

Tampa moved on from Stamkos and kept contracts reasonable so they could afford depth at every position. They are still relevant after two Cup wins. Vegas and Florida swung for the fences by identifying weaknesses and trading their best players to resolve those weaknesses....eventhough they were teams that did substantially better than the Leafs ever did. Florida traded their Marner (Huberdeau with 115 points) and their Rielly (Weegar) to solve the problem, after a Presidents Trophy year....plus sacked their coach all in 6 months because they couldnt win in the playoffs. Colorado got rid of their elite player while they could trade him. Bruins traded their Captain in a contract year, just points away from a wild card.

....

I apologize to all feelings I am hurting right now. I know our culture has a lot of sensitivity in that regard and people get offended and angry. Plus we breathlessly love our hockey heros. And that's the problem. Sometimes you just have to call it out. And forget about hurt feelings.

...

And again, I apologize to my fellow fans who get offended by a post like this. No need to attack me nor get upset. I'm just giving a perspective: Until the franchise thinks and does what the winner franchises do such as Panthers, Lightening, Avalanche etc.... it will lose.
..

Negligent to let his NMC kick in? You mean at year four of a six year deal? Re-signing one of the best players to ever play for the Leafs is foolish? Tampa letting Stamkos walk is some sort of genius? Comparing the Leafs (currently 4th in the conference) to the Bruins (who are 12th and have almost zero chance of making the playoffs) trading thier 37 year old captain? This is straight up nonsense.

We're not offended by anything you say. Our feelings aren't hurt. We're criticizing your opinions because we don't agree with them.

Does this offend you?

 

[herman]

The conversation about the potential trade is not the big deal: fairly standard tire kicking, due diligence stuff. The real story is the Leafs kept pushing to try to get Rantenan even though acquiring him would've cut them off from addressing C and D needs. Like, they really offered basically every asset on the table and were willing to go into the playoffs with those holes.

 

[cabber24]

https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/1fweczm/amazon_faceoff_series_matthews_and_nylander_sound

 

[Bullfrog]

How is that possible, herman? They're not committed to winning.

 

[Zee]

That's in theory what I understand. Could it be fabricated? Absolutely.

But by whom? Elliotte Friedman reported on Saturday that Treliving asked Marner to waive his no-movement clause—and Friedman isn’t exactly known for making things up. Then, on Sunday, Treliving holds an unscheduled press conference to talk about how much they want Mitch to stay. Clearly, he was trying to get ahead of the media storm. But at that point, the cat was already out of the bag.

 

[dappleganger]

I think the writing is on the wall. Toronto went to Mitch and said, 'If you're not going to re-sign let us trade you to Carolina and get Rantanen who is willing to sign long term with us.' I would think Mitch capitulated that he is going to re-sign with the Leafs although terms have not been reached.

That's how I think things went.

 

[cabber24]

But by whom? Elliotte Friedman reported on Saturday that Treliving asked Marner to waive his no-movement clause—and Friedman isn’t exactly known for making things up. Then, on Sunday, Treliving holds an unscheduled press conference to talk about how much they want Mitch to stay. Clearly, he was trying to get ahead of the media storm. But at that point, the cat was already out of the bag.

Sure, I just don't think we necessarily have all the details.

 

[L K]

I don't disagree that

Not just you. That's what I was trying to say earlier.

Carolina: "hey Tre, we'll trade you Rantanen for Marner?"
Tre: "hey Marner, we got asked about you. Interested in Carolina?"
Marner: "nope"
Tre: "sorry, he doesn't want to be traded."
Carolina: "k, thanks."

Maybe paraphrasing a teeny bit.

The media speculation (and that's all it is) that the Leafs would be willing to give Rantanen more than he got is like me predicting that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

And the thing about fancy math accounting offsetting the cost of things...I think players aren't that savvy. They look at it as "I pay pennies in taxes in Texas and I pay lots of tax in Toronto"....make up the difference. They aren't going to go down the line checking the cost of eggs (4.63 USD for a dozen eggs in Texas; 4.85 CAD in Canada) and rent, etc. So I think that partially explains the issues. Players also arent' going to use media opportunity as a contract offset. I guarantee Matthews/Marner/Nylander are making far more in endorsements than Jake Robertson but that's doing extra work.

I'd pay Rantanen 13+ million with the cap going up. He's a top 10 if not top 5 scorer in the NHL. I'd also pay that to Marner to keep him.

 

[Ozzie]

Negligent to let his NMC kick in?

yes

You mean at year four of a six year deal?

yes, particularly after MTL series.

Re-signing one of the best players to ever play for the Leafs is foolish?

yes, because it's Run it Again.

Tampa letting Stamkos walk is some sort of genius?

Yes, because he doesn't fit Tampa's plans.

Comparing the Leafs (currently 4th in the conference) to the Bruins (who are 12th and have almost zero chance of making the playoffs) trading thier 37 year old captain? This is straight up nonsense.

Bruins know how to win a Cup. Marchand helped them get there. The Bruins have the guts to sign a very 'team friendly' contract with him, and trade him as Captain. This is not how Leafs manage things. Leafs top players have them over a barrel and the Leafs dont trade their top guys. Watch the winners to know what to do. You can't be afraid to break things if the purpose is to win.

We're not offended by anything you say. Our feelings aren't hurt. We're criticizing your opinions because we don't agree with them.

Does this offend you?

Nope.

And it doesn't matter what any of us think or what our opinions are. Wins matter.

 

[dappleganger]

I don't disagree that


And the thing about fancy math accounting offsetting the cost of things...I think players aren't that savvy. They look at it as "I pay pennies in taxes in Texas and I pay lots of tax in Toronto"....make up the difference. They aren't going to go down the line checking the cost of eggs (4.63 USD for a dozen eggs in Texas; 4.85 CAD in Canada) and rent, etc. So I think that partially explains the issues. Players also arent' going to use media opportunity as a contract offset. I guarantee Matthews/Marner/Nylander are making far more in endorsements than Jake Robertson but that's doing extra work.

I'd pay Rantanen 13+ million with the cap going up. He's a top 10 if not top 5 scorer in the NHL. I'd also pay that to Marner to keep him.

Last 5 years Rantanen is 4th overall in scoring Behind McDavid, Draisaitl, and MacKinnon.

 

[cw]

It definitely has merit; which is why he got $4M less than Marner.

He's definitely not a defensive stalwart, but saying he plays roughly half the game is disingenuous.

I look at a guy like Robertson, who at times has been hanging on by his fingernails. He's not a big guy. He's hitting, blocking shots, backchecking, forechecking intensely - doing every single thing he can muster to improve his 2 way game contributions to survive. It is not great but at least the guy is trying really hard. He's got players like Matthews and Marner, who isn't big either, showing him the way. Then he looks across the locker room at Nylander and realizes it is a two tier system - the coach applies a different set of rules to Nylander. That doesn't impress me a whole bunch. I realize Nylander possesses exceptional talent - might be the most entertaining player to watch in the entire league - a spectacle - a genius on blades. But to me, it is a team sport and one should grab an oar and do their part - helping to block shots, finish checks, etc. That too is part of the game. Team sport - the whole team should chip in.

I recall Sundin and Mogilny starting a playoff series - Mogilny with his bad back - hitting everything in sight - leading the way. Why should I expect less from Nylander whose back is probably as healthy as could be from not hitting anything including pucks? He's got tree trunks for thighs. I did look into his injury history hoping to find an excuse for him. Didn't find anything. That is a black mark for me. If he wants respect from people like me, he'll man up and help his teammates and do some of the dirty work.

 

[Joe S.]

Carolina and Toronto engaged in a conversation around trading Rantanen. Carolina's initial ask was Marner for Rantenan.
Leafs wanted Rantanen long term and were ready to go up to 12-13M x 8.

Leafs asked Marner if he'd waive his NMC for Carolina and he said no, so Leafs pivoted to offering Minten, Cowan, 2026 1st and 2027 1st. Carolina said, no thanks (not wanting to trade in conference either).

I don’t believe at all that the leafs countered with that insane package.

 

[dappleganger]

Why not? that would have been cool.

 

[herman]

How is that possible, herman? They're not committed to winning.

I don’t believe at all that the leafs countered with that insane package.

My eyes bugged out when I heard it. No one in the insider space is refuting it and most are repeating it. It’s almost on par with the eventual package of Stankoven, 2x1sts, 2x3rds, so it’s only insane in terms of what the Leafs could afford to do. Short term pain for long term gain of the assurance the team maintains a lot of star power? It’s not like any individual in that pile of assets would even come close to Rantenan

 

[Arn]

Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Nylander, Tavares, McDavid.

That would have been a fun lineup in a couple of years even with no prospects or picks left

Hope we can get someone else in place of Rantanen. Maybe we can coax Draisatl over this year to warm McDavid’s seat up.

 

[Joe S.]

The conversation about the potential trade is not the big deal: fairly standard tire kicking, due diligence stuff. The real story is the Leafs kept pushing to try to get Rantenan even though acquiring him would've cut them off from addressing C and D needs. Like, they really offered basically every asset on the table and were willing to go into the playoffs with those holes.

That’s why I don’t believe that offer. I just can’t believe they would be that stupid.

 

[Joe S.]

My eyes bugged out when I heard it. No one in the insider space is refuting it and most are repeating it. It’s almost on par with the eventual package of Stankoven, 2x1sts, 2x3rds, so it’s only insane in terms of what the Leafs could afford to do. Short term pain for long term gain of the assurance the team maintains a lot of star power? It’s not like any individual in that pile of assets would even come close to Rantenan

It’s more that’s the entire future of the franchise because they have next to nothing if they blew their wad like that. So basically you blow up your future to sign someone who you kind of have already. It just seems stupid and doesn’t address any of the team’s needs.

 

[Frank E]

My eyes bugged out when I heard it. No one in the insider space is refuting it and most are repeating it. It’s almost on par with the eventual package of Stankoven, 2x1sts, 2x3rds, so it’s only insane in terms of what the Leafs could afford to do. Short term pain for long term gain of the assurance the team maintains a lot of star power? It’s not like any individual in that pile of assets would even come close to Rantenan

Dallas has an aging Jamie Benn (35 and UFA!) and who knows about Seguin (33yrs), and so a window right now and needing horsepower to help Hintz and Johnson and Heiskanen for the coming years...so I can understand the thinking there of bringing in Rantanen.

 

[bustaheims]

My eyes bugged out when I heard it. No one in the insider space is refuting it and most are repeating it. It’s almost on par with the eventual package of Stankoven, 2x1sts, 2x3rds, so it’s only insane in terms of what the Leafs could afford to do. Short term pain for long term gain of the assurance the team maintains a lot of star power? It’s not like any individual in that pile of assets would even come close to Rantenan

In a lot of ways, they’re repeating for the reasons you spell out - it’s similar to the package Carolina got from Dallas. It’s also already out there, so repeating it is playing it safe. That doesn’t mean it’s accurate info. We can’t be sure if it was offered by the Leafs, asked for by the Canes, or just someone putting together their best guess based on the other information that was out there.

The straight swap for Marner has been more or less confirmed by Marner acknowledging the team came to him about waiving his trade protection. The rest? It’s possible but should not be treated as gospel.

 

[herman]

It’s more that’s the entire future of the franchise because they have next to nothing if they blew their wad like that. So basically you blow up your future to sign someone who you kind of have already. It just seems stupid and doesn’t address any of the team’s needs.

I think I would be more viscerally against the concept of it two or three years ago. Now is a bit different. If the former Avalanche in question was Makar instead I think we would’ve shot 5 firsts out the door.

Rantane hedges against the Marner hole next season. Rantanen-Matthews-Marner/Knies-Tavares-Nylander would go pretty hard for one run. We’d still get killed on the bottom pair (they normally play like 6 min in the playoffs), but if that first line tips in goals regularly, that’s survivable.

Other than Cowan (maybe), none of the other pieces were going to truly do much in the next three playoff runs, so hanging onto them so preciously is like trying to contend without spending to the cap.

You can focus on accumulating picks when the window is closing with spinning off your UFA signings or letting a star try to win somewhere else.